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Andrea Martucci Reads Secrets of a Summer Night by Lisa Kleypas

Katherine Grant: [00:00:00] All right, well, welcome to the Historical Romance Sampler. This is a very special episode today. I am joined by Andrea Martucci, host of Shelf Love, a podcast and community that explores romantic love stories in fiction across media, time, and cultures for the curious and open minded who joyfully question as they consume pop culture.

And since today Andrea is joining me to discuss historical romance, and this podcast is all about sampling, we're going to frame the conversation by doing a sample or close reading of Secrets of a Summer Night by Lisa Kleypas. Andrea, I'm so excited to have you here today.

Andrea Martucci: Thank you, Katherine.

I'm really excited to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Katherine Grant: Yeah, I am a huge fan of Shelf Love. I listen to the podcast, now you've started a sub stack, and I read the sub stack, and I think you always have such interesting insights on romance, and help me, sometimes, [00:01:00] frame. As a reader and also as a writer, what my approach is, and so I'm just excited to have you here to talk to.

Andrea Martucci: Well, I love talking. I have a lot of opinions, I have a lot of feelings, so I'm always happy to talk about romance.

Katherine Grant: Yay! Alright, well to begin, like I said, we're going to do a close reading of Secrets of a Summer Night by Lisa Kleypas. And just for any listeners Who might not be familiar with the term close reading.

We're going to read a sample of it. And then you and I are going to a close reading is a like an analysis technique that English majors learn to read to analyze the text, looking at the Like the, I can't explain it any better than it's a close reading, like you're looking at it closely. Do you have a better definition?

Andrea Martucci: I think, yeah, thinking about the way particular words are used, or the way you feel when you read something, or yeah, like looking very closely, I think, at the author's [00:02:00] craft to better understand the impact it has on the reader, maybe.

Katherine Grant: Yeah, I like that. And I have not done an oral close reading since high school.

So we'll see how this goes.

Andrea Martucci: Awesome. All right. So to give a brief overview of Secrets of a Summer Night, if any of the listeners are unfamiliar with it, this was published in 2004. It's the beginning of the Wallflower series by Lisa Kleypas.

And so, you know, Secrets of a Summer Night, It Happened One Autumn, Devil in Winter. Oh gosh, I love the spring one, but now I can't remember the, the title. So you know, obviously we're, we're going through the seasons and each, each book happens in a season. So this kicked it off with summer and it features Annabelle Payton and Simon Hunt.

And essentially we have a cross class romance where Simon is the son of a butcher who has become a very successful and wealthy capitalist. I forget exactly in [00:03:00] what vein. I don't know. It doesn't, I don't know if it matters. But Annabelle is an impoverished daughter of, you know, nobility whose really only choice to save her family is to marry well.

And because everybody knows that she is penniless, she has essentially languished as a wallflower for many years. She's incredibly beautiful. And something I love about her is how mercenary she is. That she, she really knows that she is trading herself for her family's security. And, the essential conflict is Simon has been pining after her, he's, he's of course convinced himself it's just sexual, but of course he's, he's, he's You know, also engaged a little romantically for like two years and it's it's reaching a point of desperation She's at a house party.

This is her last chance to catch a husband and everybody thinks well She's going to have to become somebody's mistress if she doesn't catch a husband right [00:04:00] now So it's basically like make or break time and this scene is about three quarters of the way through the book and Essentially Annabelle has just been proposed to by the, the lord that she has been after and has said no.

And she runs into Simon. And this is what happens. Stunned, she staggered backwards as Simon Hunt looked at her. They regarded each other with identical blank stares. Having just run from Lord Kendall, Annabelle could hardly fail to note the difference between them. Hunt looked positively swarthy in the gathering dusk.

Big and potently masculine, with the eyes of a pirate and the casually ruthless air of a pagan king. He was no less arrogant than he had ever been. No tamer, no more refined, and yet somehow he had become the object of such all consuming desire that Annabelle was certain she had lost her mind. The air around them felt charged, crackling with passion and conflict.

"What is it?" Hunt asked without preliminaries, his [00:05:00] eyes narrowing at the sight of her tumult. The task of distilling her emotions into a few coherent sentences was impossible. Nevertheless, Annabelle tried. "You left Stony Cross without a word to me." His gaze was as hard and cold as ebony. You put away the chess game.

"I-" She looked away from him, biting her lip. "I couldn't afford distractions." No one's distracting you now. You want Kendall? Have at him." "Oh, thank you," she said sarcastically, "it's so kind of you to step aside gracefully now that you've ruined everything." He glanced at her alertly. "Why do you say that?" Annabelle felt absurdly cold in the swaddling of summer warm evening air.

A fine trembling began in her bones and rose upward through her skin. "The ankle boots I received when I was ill," she said recklessly. "The ones I'm wearing right now, they were from you, weren't they?" "Does it matter?" "Admit it," she insisted. "Yeah, they were from me," he said curtly. "What of it? " "I was with Lord Kendall just a minute or two ago, and everything was going according to plan, and he was just about to... but I [00:06:00] couldn't.

I couldn't let him kiss me while I was wearing these blasted boots. No doubt he thinks that I'm deranged after the way I left him, but you were right after all. He's far too nice for me, and it would have been a terrible match." She paused to inhale raggedly as she saw the sudden blaze in Hunt's eyes. His body was predatory in its alert stillness.

"So," he said softly, "now that you've thrown Kendal aside, what are your plans? Going back to Hodgeham?" Goaded by the jeering question, Annabelle scowled, "if I do, it's no business of yours." She spun on her heel and began to walk away from him. Hunt reached her in two strides. He whirled her around to face him, his hands closing around her upper arms.

Giving her a soft shake, he bent his mouth to her ear. "No more games," he said. "Tell me what you want, now, before I lose what's left of my patience." The smell of him, soapy and fresh and wonderfully male, made Annabelle dizzy. She wanted to crawl inside his clothes. She wanted him to kiss her until she fainted.

She wanted the despicable, arrogant, mesmerizing, devilishly handsome Simon Hunt. But oh, he would be merciless. Her threatened pride [00:07:00] asserted itself, clotting in her throat until she could hardly speak. "I can't," she said roughly. Drawing his head back, Hunt gazed down at her, his eyes glinting with wicked amusement.

"You can have whatever you want, Annabelle, but only if you can bring yourself to ask for it." "You're determined to humble me completely, aren't you? You won't allow me to retain one particle of dignity?" "I humble you?" He raised one brow in a sardonic slant. "After two years of receiving cuts and slights every time I asked you to dance?"

"Oh, all right," she said balefully, beginning to shake all over. "I'll admit it, I want you. There, are you satisfied? I want you." "In what capacity? Lover or husband?" Annabelle stared at him in shock. "What?" His arms slid around her, holding her quivering frame securely against his. He said nothing, only watching her intently as she tried to grasp the implications of the question.

"But you're not the marrying kind," she managed to say weakly. He touched her ear, his fingertip tracing the fragile outer curve. "I've discovered that I am when it comes to you." The [00:08:00] subtle caress set fire to her blood, making it difficult to think. "We would probably kill each other within the first month."

"Probably," Hunt conceded, his smiling mouth brushing over her temple. The warmth of his lips sent a rush of dizzying pleasure through her. "But marry me anyway, Annabelle, as I see things that would solve most of your problems, and more than a few of mine." His big hand slid gently down her spine, calming her tremors.

"Let me spoil you," he whispered. "Let me take care of you. You've never had anyone to lean on, have you? I've got strong shoulders, Annabelle, a deep laugh rumbled in his chest, and I may possibly be the only man of your acquaintance who will be able to afford you." She was too stunned to respond to the jibe.

"But why," she said, as his hand traveled up her unprotected nape. She gasped as his fingertip dipped softly into the shallow depression at the base of her skull. "Why offer to marry me when you might have me as your mistress?" He nuzzled her throat gently. "Because I realized during the past few days that I can't leave doubt in anyone's mind about to whom you belong, especially not yours." annabelle closed her eyes, her senses flooding with [00:09:00] euphoria as his mouth wandered slowly up to her dry, parted lips. His hands and arms compressed her willing flesh into his demanding hardness.

If there was mastery in the way he held her, there was also reverence. His fingertips discovering the most sensitive places on her exposed skin and teasing and whisper light strokes. She let him coax her lips open, and she moaned at the gentle probe of his tongue. He ravished her with tender kisses that assuaged her need, yet made her desperately aware of empty places that longed to be filled.

As Hunt felt the urgent quiver of her flesh against his, he soothed her with a long caress of his mouth, while his arms supported her body. Cradling her blood hot cheek in his hand, he drew his thumb across the satin veneer of her lips. "Give me your answer," he whispered. The warmth of his hand sent fine shivers across her skin, and she nestled her cheek deeper into his palm.

"Yes," she said breathlessly. Hunt's eyes gleamed with triumph. He tilted her head back and kissed her again, stealing deeper and deeper tastes. Okay, I'll stop there. But I, okay, after this, they're kissing [00:10:00] and a bunch of people are on the path and see them kissing and he goes, checkmate, which is just, it's the perfect ending.

So now they have to get married. But, but I think importantly, she already said yes.

Katherine Grant: She did already say yes. Yes. Does that call into The question, was he just doing it to win a game versus actually being in love? I hadn't read the book.

Andrea Martucci: That's a great question. So I don't know Well, we're only three quarters of the way through the book.

Katherine Grant: So these questions, there's gotta be some other tension. Mm-Hmm. .

Andrea Martucci: Yeah. So, yeah, you've never read this book, so what do you think of that?

What do you get a sense of already about these characters and their relationship?

Katherine Grant: Some of the things that stood out to me. Even just in like the first sentence, she was stunned. She was staggering. And his last name is Hunt. And so that word came into play. And so I felt this huge imbalance. of physical power [00:11:00] where throughout this whole scene she was quivering, she was walking away from him, she was like small and he was following her, he was touching her, even when he, he grabs her arm and then he starts like stroking her ear and then he moves down to her neck and in a way it was very sensual and like, you know, you love reading that, but on another level he's touching her in these very sensitive, like, Sensitive to life.

Andrea Martucci: Vulnerable areas.

Katherine Grant: Yes, vulnerable. Like he's touching her skull and he's touching her neck. And I was like, oh, if he were a predator, he'd just snap her neck right now. Yeah. So I, I really was feeling that kind of tension in the relationship.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah. And I, I think he, he does act very predatory.

Like when he sense blood in the water, essentially he's, he, he pauses alertly or he glanced at her alertly. Like he [00:12:00] definitely thinks that. maybe he's not going to catch her at the beginning of their conversation. He thinks that he's lost her to another and then he gets this sense of, oh, the game's, the game's not over or the, the hunt is not over.

And his entire demeanor kind of changes. All of a sudden he's, he's touching her, pulling her in persuading her. You know, not just with, not with force, or not just with physical touch, but also convincing not just her body, but her mind and her heart, I think. Mm hmm. Because at this point he could just, you know, she has no other choice.

He could say, okay, be my mistress, I'll support you, and she'd say yes, you know? And so I think that him conceding more ground than he needs to here, maybe brings them into a little bit more of an even playing field even though he is physically, economically, you know, et cetera, more powerful [00:13:00] than her.

Katherine Grant: Yeah, that's interesting.

I hadn't thought about... this scene is from her point of view. So we know what just happened. I hadn't thought about the shift from him encountering her, assuming that she's about to get engaged to this guy, that he's lost her. And then what happens when he discovers that actually she's available to him.

And clearly, like, he can have her because she said no to this guy who she was planning to say yes to.

Andrea Martucci: Right, right. So he, I mean, he is bringing to this game, or whatever you want to call it, he's bringing everything he's got, you know? I'm gonna support you. I'm gonna take care of you. Like, not just from a material standpoint, and helping her take care of her family, which is a huge, like, mental load that she has, but he's also promising physical pleasure.

He's promising that he is going to make her feel valuable in this relationship. She may have [00:14:00] felt before in the mistress dynamic that she, I mean, she's an object to be consumed and then potentially discarded in the future. And, and when we're talking about this cross class romance between a capitalist and a member of the nobility, or I don't know if she's a member of the nobility.

She's, you know, obviously upper class, not maybe not like a lady. I think that, you know, talking about being bought and sold is a really, there's a lot going on there in this scene and in this book. And so I think him saying, I don't want there to be doubt in anyone's mind to whom you belong. first of all is possessing, laying claim to her, but then he says, especially in your mind, you need to know that I not, I don't just want you, I want to keep you forever,

which is a, which I think so much of Annabelle's insecurities are About that sense of kind of permanence and belonging and I mean just security, right? [00:15:00] So yeah, he he if he didn't care for her in this moment if it was just a transaction, I he he could have skipped over a lot of this

Katherine Grant: Right.

That's what makes it romantic

Andrea Martucci: exactly

Katherine Grant: the other thing that was standing out to me was how Difficult it was for annabelle to speak And that her emotions were really big but she didn't have words for them. And then she was overwhelmed by the physical sensation. So she didn't quite have words. Which I think is typical in a scene like this, but it also

it underscores a theme that I think we see throughout a lot of romance, which is that emotion and communication are often Incompatible. Yeah. You know, like, you can, you have all of these emotions, you don't know how to say them, and so you do the wrong thing, or you say the wrong thing and this is a scene where she was trying to say something, and then when she does finally say something, she's saying [00:16:00] yes to him.

So that's, I imagine, is this a culmination of something we've seen throughout the book where she's trying to say, trying to express herself and failing?

Andrea Martucci: I think she's usually pretty articulate when it comes to defending herself because, I mean, I think you can tell they have a little bit of this antagonistic slash it becomes more playful as the book goes on relationship.

And so she always has a comeback. I think that given her position, her comeback tends to be a bit defensive and, or aggressive, you know, like stand back, you know, like I can defend I'm not easy prey here. I think that This, something we see a lot in historical romance, particularly like, the older the historical romance is, and this book is 20 years old at this point, is that when it comes to physical pleasure, I think we are much more likely to see a female main character become less articulate because We know from the [00:17:00] text and also the subtext that these are new feelings that she has never had before, and maybe she is she's trying to contextualize them, understand them I think a lot of times trying to protect One's heart and say, look, just because I'm having pants feelings, you know, not that they would think about, about it like that.

This may be, this isn't love. Maybe I need to, I need to keep my head up and wits about me and maintain, you know, okay, yes, my body wants this person. And I don't know how I feel about that. And I don't know what to do with this necessarily. Oh my God, what am I supposed to do? You know, because because I think Annabelle in particular does have an understanding that, I mean, particularly given their relationship starts with essentially a proposition to be a mistress that just because he wants her physically does not mean that he loves her, or that they're going to have an emotional relationship.

And And from the beginning of this book, Annabelle has had a very mercenary outlook about [00:18:00] marriage, where she understands that in her class, it's a transaction. She's not expecting to fall in love with somebody. She's not romantic. And so I think that her inarticulateness when it comes to feelings, physical feelings as well that it's just like new ground that she doesn't know how to navigate.

Katherine Grant: Yeah.

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Katherine Grant: And so you mentioned that this book is 20 years old . One question that I have kind of generally for you is there's a lot of anxiety among authors that historical romance readers are dying off and not being replaced.

And then I also see preferences expressed by some readers that, oh, they really just prefer the older stuff. The older stuff is different. And so they can enjoy the newer stuff, but somehow there's a disconnect. And I'm, obviously there was a point where consent became very important.

But what's your experience or view on old school historical versus modern historical? Like, are we publishing with a [00:20:00] different covenant to our readers and is that why there's a disconnect?

Andrea Martucci: Hmm, that's a great question. Recently I've been digging into the historical romance bestsellers from the 1970s.

And I think it's a very interesting time because it, It, 1972 is essentially seen as this turning point, right, where, like, the modern popular romance genre kind of bursts into existence with The Flame and the Flower, written by Kathleen Wittowis. And it's more complex than that, but something that did happen is the American published historical romance kind of emerges.

And what I think is really interesting about, like, the 1970s is, I think you see this fledgling newborn genre coming out and it's kind of, it's kind of being born from a bunch of other things that existed previous to this, borrowing from a bunch of different places. And I think that the covenant, you know, the promised covenant to the readers in the 1970s is [00:21:00] extremely different from our expectations today with historical romance.

Like something that I think might be surprising to modern romance readers today is that in the 1970s there were, you know, the, what we think of as bodice rippers, like Rosemary Rogers Sweet Savage Love. I mean, it's, full on rape, multiple men in this woman's life very violent. And so there was kind of this like, Woodiwiss strain that was much more like one man, one woman.

It may be, I mean, still violent sexual experiences and all of that. But then there was this other strain and they were super popular, like millions of copies of, you know, These books being sold. And I think that if you look at like the Rosemary Rogers type authors from the seventies, nobody reads them anymore.

Nobody really wants to engage with them because essentially that was the strain that died out. That was the like, Oh no, we're not going in that direction. We're going in [00:22:00] this direction and we're going to kind of build on this. And so I think that's constantly happening, like, you know, in the 80s, you know, maybe it kind of starts to move in another direction, but then there's some books moving in this direction, and then this kind of dies out, and now we move farther and farther in this way.

And, and reader expectations start to shift along with them. I think the strain that is consistent it's that one man, one woman at which obviously has evolved into being, you know, like a primary couple.

Like we know that readers today don't love the idea of on page or within the text any of the main characters engaging with somebody else romantically or sexually. Like readers don't They are really, a lot of people are like very against that, right? I think that's something that from that point, you know, it was kind of like, Oh, preference noted, and authors and publishers really kind of picked up on that.

But, Obviously a lot of other things have changed, right? [00:23:00] Like, the publishing industry has, the traditional publishing industry has started to become aware to of you know, different types of relationships, different people in relationships that are still, you know, considered romantic by readers, even though, you know, if you go back to the 1970s, they would have said, oh, nobody wants to read that, you know?

So I think, I think a lot has changed there, but The basic architecture that I think romance readers really like is It's that focus on the relationship. It's they, I think people want to kind of know and see the end game. Like they don't want that. I mean, they want a little tension, a little like insecurity, like, is this going to happen?

Is it, you know, like what's going to keep these people apart. But you know, I think that maybe what I see happening today is pulling out more and more of the tension. Like, I think that Like it's, it's all good things [00:24:00] that readers are becoming more socially conscious in their reading habits. But I think that sometimes the level of expectation for characters rises, it's like beyond what we would expect any human to do.

to hold up to. And it's like we, I think a lot of readers, or there may be some vocal readers who are like, Oh, I don't want to see them make that kind of mistake or hurt the other character in this way. And I mean, I'm kind of of the position where I'm like, Yeah, but you're kind of sucking the fun out of it.

Like, you know, like we, we, this isn't real life. Look, I've got this picture. I don't want to go on a pirate ship. But you know, like that, I want to read about that for sure. Absolutely. Like that sounds fun. Take me on an adventure or take me on an emotional roller coaster. And if that happened to me in real life,

absolutely I would dump the person and move on, but fiction is always kind of exaggerating the conflicts that we are dealing with, [00:25:00] or or maybe kind of just giving us exposure to like emotional experiences that would be much more unpleasant if they were happening in an uncertain environment such as real life.

In the context of a book, something, if you're like, look, I know these two people are going to be together at the end, and I know, I know who Endgame is. That is the security that allows us to enjoy. things happening between the characters where we're like, Oh gosh, I don't know how they're going to come back from this.

You know, that doesn't mean we want to experience that because in real life, we don't know if it's going to be the right choice to stay with somebody or like, if we're going to end up with them. So it's like way too uncomfortable to experience in real life.

Katherine Grant: Yeah. Yes, that's interesting.

Andrea Martucci: But everything is, I mean, if studying romance has taught me one thing, it is that everything cycles around again. Nothing is new, you know, it's, but I think what happens [00:26:00] is there, there are these ebbs and flows where kind of the, the big pop culture excitement just goes from thing to thing.

Like, you know, Bridgerton came out. Everybody was like, oh my god, historicals is back. And now all anybody wants to talk about is romantasy. And you know what, that is going to keep happening. A lot of times, I think it just kind of congeals around like there's there's always going to be this like one or a few big bestsellers of any particular time And they massively outsell most other books And they kind of tend to like suck the oxygen out of the conversation about anything else And so, you know, like fourth wing is huge right now.

So everybody is like wow romantasy is everywhere it's kind of hard to say is romantasy actually selling You In, you know, massively higher. If you took fourth wing out of the equation is romantasy in general selling that big, or is there just one really big romantasy book?

Same with contemporary romance. There's a few really big contemporary romance authors right now who are [00:27:00] outselling everybody else, a hundred to one, that's going to skew the data. And it's going to skew our perception because. Also like, no shade to these people. Most adults don't read more than like three books a year.

So, you know, the majority of people are only reading like, Colleen Hoover, Emily Henry, and, you know, somebody else who I'm not thinking of outside of, you know, women's fiction and romance. So yeah, like that's probably like the majority of like books that people in general are reading, but if you look at then the heavy readers, I mean, yeah, people, people who are really into historical romance are going to keep reading historical romance and, and maybe read some older stuff, read some new stuff that's coming out.

I mean, and, and those are probably the people who are reading the majority of books, you know?

Katherine Grant: Yeah. You had a really interesting sub stack recently. I think it was about 50 shades. I don't know if that was the book. It was generally about bestsellers.

Andrea Martucci: [00:28:00] Yeah.

Katherine Grant: And what it landed for me is a thought that I have had

many times is, as an author, I don't want my books to end up in airport book stores.

Andrea Martucci: Oh, I think you do though.

Do you know why? Because that's what sells?

Because if, if you think about like, I always think about this blog post from, it was, I don't know, a long time ago, Roxanne Gay wrote it and it was like too many of us, too much noise.

And it was, it was about literary magazines, but it was just about like, there's just too much and like most people just kind of like can't consume all of this. It's impossible to even know everything that's happening. There's so much romance. There's so much everything. And I think we under appreciate the value of curation and the places that are curating.

And it's not purely based on this is a good book and therefore I'm going to curate this into a shortlist. There's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes influencing what is curated and how, [00:29:00] but there is so much power in being one of the five romance books in an airport bookstore or going into Barnes & Noble and being on that front

round table that says big on book talk or going into the grocery store. And again, like being one of a few titles, because not only is that, does that mean that you're being distributed in a huge number of places, but then also in consumers minds, they go in there and they're like, Oh, that represents to me romance authors.

This is who is big and important. And every time I go to an airport or if I see any sort of like small romance collection in a store, I always take a picture because for me, it's a reminder that what I'm reading isn't necessarily what everybody else is reading,

you

know? Because I'm kind of like, Oh my God, I didn't even know Daniel Steele was still publishing, you know?

Katherine Grant: Yeah. Well, I think for me, I think one of the points you made in your sub stack [00:30:00] was the people who are reading fourth wing. I think that was the book that you were primarily talking about and 50 shades just got in there somehow. The people who are reading fourth wing are not people who read either romance or fantasy.

They're people who are picking up a book and saying, Oh, Hey, this is fun. And I think I Okay, obviously there's a part of me that would like to be a bestseller and also would like to be considered representative of the romance genre, but at the same time the artist in me,

I am writing,

I, my books are written,

I'm thinking so much about what else is going on in romance and it's in conversation with these other romance books. Or these other history books that I've read that I kind of want my reader to be bringing to the page with them. Not that I assume everyone has read the same romance books, but you know, once you're like reading romance, historical romance at a certain pace, like you, [00:31:00] you're bringing stuff with you.

That's like my ideal reader. And so the airport reader who has never read historical romance before, doesn't even know what a Viscount is, is gonna. lose something. And so I think that's why I feel kind of like, Oh, I don't want that.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah. That's, I mean, it's interesting. Cause I guess, I guess on the one hand, I kind of feel like the, the power of you're a hundred percent right.

The power of the airport bookstore is in a way that it's just signifying this is a book you should read. And a lot of people kind of take that pretty much at face value. They're like, thank you for curating because I was not going to look through a hundred books. So I think that in terms of getting awareness, like, hey, this book exists, it's incredibly powerful.

But I mean, you're also, you're bringing up a great point, right? Which is no understanding your audience and understanding what it is that you're creating and who it's [00:32:00] for. I think about this as a podcaster all the time. Like do I, do I go, or, and as a substacker, too, like, do I go more accessible where I talk about basically like romance 101 type things where I explain a lot about, you know, like, What is this trope or you know, let me just talk about the big book everybody else is talking about or, you know, again, like, I mean, just like making a very accessible conversation where you can come into it without build it without needing to build on any other previous knowledge specifically about this topic.

So I'm like, I could do that. And then I'm like, but I don't want to. And, and, you know, I mean, and like, it's like, I had to kind of make a choice at some point, right? Like which direction am I going in? And as long as I am aware of what I'm doing and then I set my expectations appropriately, I need to be good with that.

Like, yeah. Okay. Guess what? I'm going to be super niche and a little more academic than I even should be sometimes, but that's really what I'm enjoying doing. And the reason [00:33:00] I'm doing this is for my own self interest and for other people who want to do that. So I think, I mean, just to kind of like bring that into being an author, I think, I think it's like, you have to make the same choice, right?

Like what's it about for you if it's about becoming a massive bestseller. you probably should write your books a little bit differently than if your goal is to like, write the book of your heart and have it find readers who are going to appreciate like what you've put in there. And so, and I think it's totally valid to create for more reasons than just commercial success.

Bring it back to Secrets of a Summer Night. I mean, like, just this, you know like, what do we value in society? Lisa Kleypas values capitalism, okay? Like, just to be clear. And she's very good at it. You know, she's

Katherine Grant: She might be in an airport bookstore.

Andrea Martucci: Yes, absolutely. Right? So I think, yeah, no, but I think that it's It's, it's perfectly, I think it's great for us as creators to [00:34:00] take a step back and be like, well, yeah, I mean, I would totally take the millions of dollars that being a bestseller might give me.

And you know, like all the exposure, you know, this is all great. But if you, if you're kind of like, yeah, but actually I don't want to do that. Like, I actually wouldn't. Want to have to do all these things or to I don't want to write that kind of book That's not really what interests me then then you also kind of have to like be like, okay Then I'm letting go of some of the other things You know.

Katherine Grant: Right.

I might not be able to make a living off of it, but I'm still going to write. Sort of trade off. Yeah. Yeah. Which, as an artiste, you know. Artistes have been making that trade off for centuries.

Andrea Martucci: Indeed. Indeed.

Katherine Grant: Well we should probably move on to our game, Love It or Leave It.

Katherine Grant: Love it or leave it, the protagonists meet in the first 10 percent of the novel.

Andrea Martucci: Love it. [00:35:00] Honestly, if you could get them in the first two pages, I would love it even more. It drives me up a wall when I get into a romance novel and I don't even meet the secondary character for a long time, or I don't see them in the same room, they don't even know who each other is.

For, I mean, 10%, I mean, seriously, that's like, I'm like, if I get 10 percent and they haven't met each other, I am closing this book and I'm throwing it away. I feel like this isn't a romance. I mean, yeah, and like, I'm sure you could find a book that I loved that subverts that, but but yeah, I'm like, I'm here to see these people together, put them together as much as possible and as soon as possible.

Katherine Grant: Alright, love it or leave it, dual point of view narration.

I love it because I think it affords the reader a point of view that we don't get in real life. Which is, you know, we're, we're in these situations with other people. We know how we feel. We never get to know how somebody else feels about it. And so it is such a [00:36:00] pleasure to understand both sides of an interaction.

And if there's miscommunication, kind of understand where the other character is coming from. I just, I find that to be like one of the benefits of fiction. That we, you know, we don't get that in real life. And it's just, So lovely.

Alright, love it or leave it, third person past tense.

Andrea Martucci: Leave

it. Hmm. I, I, if I'm, I'm thinking about like past tense. I think the past tense, I mean it tends to feel like a diary, maybe? If I'm thinking of this, oh wait, third person past tense. Third person

Katherine Grant: past tense is like what Lisa Kleypas wrote in where we're getting the she's and the he's. First person past tense would be, I am writing in my diary.

Oh my gosh, you won't believe what happened.

Andrea Martucci: Right. Oh wait, hold on, I have to re evaluate my answer now. Oh, I thought this was third person present, though. He, oh nope, it's past. He [00:37:00] reached her. He, not he reaches her. Okay, never mind. Love it.

Katherine Grant: That's so interesting. I wonder, I think it's a sign of how involved you are in the text, that you're just like, oh, it's present tense, because I'm in the moment.

Andrea Martucci: Yes, I think, exactly, exactly. That one, that one was hard for me to answer, because I think, exactly like you just said, if a narration is, if a narrative is doing what it should do, which is transport me, I'm not noticing. of that.

Katherine Grant: It's interesting because there's a lot of angst amongst authors again.

And I think this is because of people on TikTok saying things contemporary romance right now tends to be written in first person present. So I see him across the hall and I'm giving him my coffee. And there are readers who saying, Oh, I'm never going to read third person. I only going to read first person.

And so there are now historical romance authors who are like, well, should I be writing my historic romance? in first person present. And then a lot of us are like, wait, wait, wait, [00:38:00] that feels weird too. I'm kind of on of the same ilk of you, which is, if the story's doing its job, the reader shouldn't really be aware of how it's being told to them.

They should just be compelled.

Andrea Martucci: I did see I definitely saw somebody saying, like, Give me book recommendations, only first person. I was like, that's weird. To me. Yeah. But with my history in reading where I'm just like, And I think again, if you go back to like what we were talking about with fourth wing, if this is, if first person is your primary experience and you enjoyed it, I think people start to say, Oh, I only enjoy first person.

And it's like, no, the books you enjoyed had first person. It's correlation, not causation. Right?

Katherine Grant: Yes. Absolutely. Okay. Love it or leave it. Third act breakup or dark moment.

Andrea Martucci: This isn't a response, but I like it. I don't know if I, I don't know if it's a response, but I like it. I love it? I don't, I'm generally positive towards [00:39:00] it.

I'm definitely not anti black moment or dark moment.

Katherine Grant: Okay. But you also aren't anti books that find a different way to have tension.

Andrea Martucci: Yes, exactly. Yeah. I, I don't know if they need to break up for sure. But I do think there has to be there has to be enough conflict that there is a progression to the narrative.

And so, I mean, I suppose a dark moment, or there has to be like a, what do they call that, like a whiff of death. Right? And it could be a whiff of death to the relationship, not necessarily mortal death.

Katherine Grant: Yeah. Love it or leave it, always end with an epilogue.

Andrea Martucci: I'm gonna say love it. The always, though, gives me pause. I, I usually enjoy an epilogue.

Katherine Grant: Alright. Love it or leave it, share research in an author's note.

Andrea Martucci: I do love it. A nice, short note that just tells me, did something really happen? Did you base it on a particular event? Give me enough, enough that if I wanted to go do [00:40:00] more reading, I know what to go look for.

Katherine Grant: Alright. Well, that was Love It or Leave It. Thank you so much for playing.

Andrea Martucci: Oh, you're welcome. It was a pleasure.

Katherine Grant: And thank you for coming on the podcast. I've really, really enjoyed this. I'm gonna put in the show notes, a link to your website, but Would you like to plug anything, tell people where to find you?

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, I mean, probably the best place to find me is shelflovepodcasts. substack. com or shelflovepodcasts.

com. The everything links to everything else, but you know, or find shelf love. That's two words on your favorite podcast app. And I've been podcasting for five years, so there's some episodes to catch up on if you're just first learning of shelf love.

Katherine Grant: There are some great episodes. I think the very first one I listened to was called something like Problematizing Joyfully.

Andrea Martucci: Joyfully, yeah. Or yeah, was it the one with Whoamance?

Katherine Grant: Yeah, it was.

Andrea Martucci: That's, [00:41:00] that is one of my favorite episodes too, so it's a, yeah, I, I wish I could remember the exact name of it, but Yeah, I love connecting, I mean, like this right now, I love connecting with other people who are thinking and talking and reading romance, so I mean, most of my favorite experiences with romance like, you know, creation, creating discourse around romance, it's with other people who are also like deeply nerdy about it.

So I mean, that's a great example. And also, I mean, this is why I really appreciate you inviting me here today to, to talk to you, Katherine.

Yeah. Well, I'm going to keep listening to your podcast. And so I'll see you around in the virtual world. Likewise. Likewise.

Katherine Grant: That's it for this week. Check out the show notes where I put links for my guests, myself, and the podcast. Until next week, happy reading.