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Cathy Maxwell Samples A Touch of Steele
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Katherine Grant: Welcome to the historical romance sampler podcast. I'm your host, Katherine Grant, and each week I introduce you to another amazing historical romance author. My guest reads a little sample of their work, and then we move into a free ranging interview. If you like these episodes, don't forget to subscribe to the historical romance sampler, wherever you listen to podcasts and follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube.
Now let's get into this week's episode.
I am so honored and excited to have with us today bestselling author Cathy Maxwell. Cathy has such a fun bio. After graduating from college, she started off as a news broadcaster. Then she decided reporting was boring, so she joined the Navy and had a successful stint in Naval Intelligence, including a tour with the Pentagon.
Then Cathy [00:01:00] pursued writing and she now has over 35 published romance novels and five anthologies to her credit, many of them which have spent significant time on the New York Times and USA Today Mass Market bestseller lists. Several have been nominated for the Romance Writers of America's prestigious Rita Awards.
And Cathy has been honored with the RT book reviews, love and Laughter Award among others. Cathy's motto is Travel light.
And she enjoys meeting her fans all over the world. Cathy, thanks so much for joining the Historical Romance Sampler podcast today.
Cathy Maxwell: Well, thank you Katherine. Thank you for having me. I just published my 41st book. Wow. So, you know, so. I've been working.
I am such a boring grandmother. It's not even funny. I mean, kids are fed up with me.
Katherine Grant: And what are you reading for us today? Is it from your 41st book?
Cathy Maxwell: 41st book. Yes. I'm gonna be reading from A Touch of Steele. It is the third book of the gambler's [00:02:00] daughter series and that it is a trilogy, so it's the final book. Readers met Mr. Steele in the first book, and I have to confess, I had a scene in there in the very beginning that when the Avon assistant editors were coming to look for a front cut piece to promote the book. They pulled him out and I was like, well, no. Wait a minute. He's, he's not the hero of the book.
He's not the hero of the book, but he was a hum dinger of a character, I'm gonna tell you. So I was kind of excited. So then I put him into the second book. He makes an appearance, and finally he gets his own book with the the, the last daughter. Her name is Gwendolyn and his name is Beck, Beckett Steele.
He makes a living out of finding the things people want found, you know an errant son that's run off with the family money and is trying to gamble it away. He brings them back, you know, eloping daughters, [00:03:00] discovering where jewelry has disappeared that's been stolen, that sort of thing. So that's kind of what he does.
He's known for solving whatever problems you want solved without anyone knowing. But in this book, he's gonna solve a great mystery in his own life, and it's the mystery of who is his father. Why is his father turned away from him? So and who's his mother?
But in order to do it, he has to work with Gwendolyn. The, the person that's gonna let him get close to his father loves to play whist. And she said that if you can find a whist partner who will beat everyone else, then I will take you towards where the Marquess Middlebury is.
And I'm gonna start at the beginning of the scene where Gwendolyn has just met Lady Orpington, has played whist with her. Just impressed the socks off the old broad.
And so the lady [00:04:00] Orpington says, we got a deal. Let's go Mr. Steele. But one of the problems is there's always been an attraction between Gwendolyn and Mr.
Steele.
And Gwendolyn, the moment she laid eyes on him, everything in her body said, "This is the one." Mm. So even though she's been on the marriage market, her imagination belongs to Mr.
Steele.
He is the man she wants. So let me jump into this. Like I said, they've just gotten the approval from Lady Orpington. They're at her house and:
Beck was surprised by the number of footmen who all of a sudden appeared stationed along the hallway in her path. They hadn't been there when he'd arrived, and he didn't like the way their gazes followed Gwendolyn's tall, refined figure as she passed them.
He was certain they noticed the way her hips moved with a gentle sway and imagined exactly how long her legs were. For her part, she seemed oblivious to the hearts [00:05:00] she was conquering. At one point, she smiled in the direction of a footman. The man's face flushed red. Beck understood. Gwendolyn had that effect on every male of her acquaintance, including himself.
There were times when she shot him a look of complete hero worship. She romanticized him, and if he wasn't careful, he would see himself through her eyes. He would forget exactly who he was. He was a loner. He didn't need entanglements. He liked his life the way it was. Besides, he brutally reminded himself, Gwendolyn could do much better than him.
She deserved better. His job was to see that no ill befell her. She was doing him a great favor and he was determined to keep her safe. Middlebury hadn't sent his man Winstead to coddle Beck, but to kill him. That was why the conversation he was about to have [00:06:00] with her was critical, and he didn't anticipate her being happy about it.
Downstairs a footman held her bonnet. Gwendolyn took the hat and tied the crisp ribbons under her chin at a fetching angle. The ribbons matched the blue of her dress and made her golden brown eyes stand out even more. For his disguise, Beck had given up his preferred wide brimmed hat for a curled brim beaver that all the gentlemen wore.
He tipped it low over his eyes and offered Gwendolyn his arm. She rested her glove hand lightly on his sleeve, and they went out the front door. Lady Orpington's coach waited for them. A footman jumped down from the rumble, the seat at the rear of the coach, to place a small step by the coach door. She held Beck's hand as she climbed in, and there was something about her grace, her presence, that made him feel ridiculously gallant. "Drive until I tell you differently,"
he instructed the Coachman. He removed his hat and climbed into the coach. [00:07:00] He took the seat opposite hers, his back to the driver, and set the hat beside him. The footman closed the door. Beck pulled down the shades to protect them from prying eyes. Gwendolyn watched his every movement, her hands folded in her lap.
He sat back against the seat, and that's when he noticed how close the space was. Or did it feel close because he was with her? He couldn't name the scent she wore, but it reminded him of summer of wildflowers and sparkling streams. She wasn't fair haired and blue eyed like her sisters. However he liked Gwendolyn's dark looks, her heavy, glossy hair that was as black as a raven's wing and her startling golden eyes that seemed to look right into the heart of him.
The tightening in his loins, that damnable mien that roiled a man's blood, assured him that the sooner he set her against him, the better. Beck knocked on the roof a signal for the [00:08:00] driver to leave. The Coachman shouted, "ha!" And they began to move.
"What is going on?" Gwendolyn started as if she could contain herself no longer, but Beck held up a gloved hand.
She must still wait. Gwendolyn sat back, a small line furrowing her brow, her pressed lips a sign of impatience. And then she wet them. The sight of the tip of her tongue caught and held him. Dear God, she had no an idea of her impact upon men, and it made her all the more enticing. "I am not who you believe I am,"
he said abruptly. The opening to his planned speech, warning her not to expect anything from him, especially if it involved her heart before he could launch into his planned admonishments. She interrupted him with mock dismay. "Oh, are you telling me you aren't Mr. Curran?"
"Miss Lanscarr," he said, in warning.
"Mr.
Steele," she [00:09:00] replied in the same formidable tone.
"I'm attempting a serious discussion."
"As am I. You wish to be Mr. Curran? Very well. Yes. Mr. Curran, what do you need to tell me? Oh, you aren't the man I believe you to be. Well, that makes sense because I know you as Mr. Steele. Does Lady Orpington know?"
"Of course she does," he snapped. "She hired me to find you and she knows I'm not her nephew."
"And in return for you finding her a whist partner she likes, she owes you a favor. You ask that she pretend you are her nephew. I'm correct, aren't I? I'm assuming you're doing this to go to Colemar. Why? What is your game?"
His intention had been to inform her that he was not someone she should focus her hopes on.
He was not heroic. He didn't deserve her longing looks or wetting her lips in that innocently seductive way of hers. He was [00:10:00] not a man like Jim, who wanted a wife, a hearth, and a cluster of children. Unfortunately, Gwendolyn had seized control of the conversation. She was also justified in asking questions.
He would do the same in her position. At his silence, Gwendolyn waved a hand as if to wake him up. "What is the ploy, the scheme, what are we about to do? You act as if I want you to help rob the post. Do you?" She asked her eyes lighting up as if she would be game. God help him. with great deliberateness, he said, "Miss
Lascarr, curb your imagination. You will be a guest at Colemar. You will be Lady Orpington's whist partner. You play cards and nothing else." "Do you want me to win?" "Lady Orpington does." She considered that a moment, and then pressed, "but what do you want me to do?" The thought hit him: to let me [00:11:00] kiss you, to fall into my arms and let me make love to.
He could have smacked himself in the head for his errant thoughts. They had just popped up without encouragement. Well. The tilt of her head as she looked up at him under dark lashes had encouraged them and her asking him what he wanted her to do. Such an innocent question that every male part of him had come to life upon hearing.
"It is something the matter, Mr. Steele? You seem unsettled. How may I help?" Another question with a lewd undertone. Except to her. She was looking at him as if she was a green recruit, and this was the first day of training and that made him feel even more awkward. He hid behind sternness. "By playing cards,"
he responded, "that is all I ask of you." He said the last as a reminder to himself, especially since the rolling of the coach over London's cobbled streets brought her knee repeatedly in [00:12:00] contact with his knee. It was not intentional, but then it apparently didn't need to be for him to hear the double entendre
in her replies. She sat forward, the peak of her bonnet almost brushing the roof of the coach. "Then ask more of me," she said. There was another one. Did she realize what she was saying? The very male part of Beck roared to life with desire. Instead, he shifted his weight, moving his knee as far as he could from bumping hers and masked his reaction.
Gwendolyn frowned as if she thought him behaving strangely. That only added insult to all of it. She apparently was not affected by his presence. While he hadn't been so rattled since he first discovered there was a difference between men and women. His intended lecture about not expecting anything other than a working relationship now seemed egotistical on his part.
He was the one having the problem. Gwendolyn Lascarr seemed unbothered [00:13:00] by his close proximity. Well, to the devil with all of this. He started to reach up and tap on the roof a signal to the driver to take Gwendolyn home, but she grabbed his arm pulling it down. Her boldness and the contact surprised him. Even through the layers of his jacket sleeve and shirt sparks shot through him.
"You cannot return me home yet," she informed him. "I will not partner with Lady Orpington until I know what is happening. There is more to this than a whist game."
The sparks died. Few challenged Beck. He did not like it. His equilibrium returned. "You owe me a favor, Miss Lascarr." Her chin came up with the finality in his voice.
"I'm willing to pay it, but I would be a fool to involve myself in something I didn't understand. Why can't you go to Colemar as yourself? What is the scheme?"
"The less you know, the better." [00:14:00] Of course that didn't appease Gwendolyn Lascarr. "I doubt that Mr. Steele, and if you wish me to keep your true identity hidden from the Marquess of Middlebury, I believe I'm owed an explanation."
"You wouldn't betray me."
"Is that a chance you wish to take?"
"I shall find another card player, he said. "By next week."
She shook her head. "That is impossible. Not now that someone is stubborn as Lady Orpington has given me her approval. Besides," she continued as if her hand was being forced. "I can send a letter to Colemar.
Let them know you are planning some sort of substitute."
Beck's temper ignited. "Don't test me, Miss Lascarr." Why was he always attracted to the wrong woman?
"Then you must explain yourself, sir. I have a right to know why you are impersonating someone else."
She spoke reasonably and that made [00:15:00] her words all the more infuriating and didn't help that he actually did need her.
Desire was one thing. Being in a position where he had no other recourse was another. In truth, he'd brought in several partners for Lady Orpington. They'd been mostly men with minor titles. The sort Lady Orpington had thought she wanted, but Beck had known Gwendolyn would be the one. She had the talent for cards and the aristocratic bearing to fit in with the Middlebury set.
She would make Lady Orpington look good. More important, she would deflect attention from himself and his purpose at Colemar.
"I'm attempting to protect you," he said tightly.
"So you keep telling me."
Well, he would give her the truth. All of it. He would make her retreat in distaste and then he'd never have to worry about her being infatuated with him.
"I am the bastard son of the Marquess of Middlebury. [00:16:00] My mother is some nameless whore." He paused, giving her moment to react, expecting her to recoil in delicate horror, but he misjudged her once again. Instead, she plunged into questions.
"Does the marquess know you are his son? Is that why you're pretending to be someone else?"
"He knows of me, but he doesn't know me. We have never met."
"Oh. This seems a strange way to introduce yourself."
"I'm not introducing myself. I don't want him to know my true identity." She didn't need to know about Olin Winstead's attack, a sign that someone at Colemar would go to great lengths to stop him. As for her safety,
he would protect her. She changed the subject. "You speak well for a whore's son," she observed as if it was important to their conversation.
"I'm not uneducated."
"How did you become educated?" He [00:17:00] made an impatient sound. "Middlebury paid for my schooling and purchased my commission."
"All that money. And he doesn't know who you are."
"He doesn't wish to. There. Curiosity satisfied?"
"Not completely. You were in the military of course, that explains much about you. No wonder you do not enjoy being challenged."
"Does any man?"
"Does any person?"
His frustration overcame his command of the situation. "Gwendolyn, you try my patience."
"I find you somewhat challenging as well,"
she replied without heat and then there was a quick smile. "I also like the way you say my given name. You linger on the first syllable."
Only then did he realize he'd taken the liberty of her name, the name he used when he thought of her.
"Not on purpose," he answered, "but because you can be [00:18:00] exasperating, Miss Lascarr. I should not have forgotten myself. Please forgive me."
Her lips formed a pout. "We are back to formalities. I give you permission to use my name if you wish."
"I do not wish. I was improper. I beg your pardon."
"No pardon needed," she assured him. What he anticipated to be a three minute conversation of him telling her not to form an attachment for him had turned into her talking circles around him.
"Miss Lascarr, do not allow me liberties." "I," she started and he rolled right over her, cutting off whatever she was about to say. She needed to see. "Since I spent my childhood in a brothel, I lived among whores." There. He'd said it. He wasn't just the son of a whore. He'd lived that life. It was his shame, his secret.
Not even Wagner knew about his mother or any of the circumstances of Beck's heritage. [00:19:00] Fortunately, it wasn't a conversation that came up amongst men of war, except there were those who knew, or so he suspected. The murkiness of his past had been one of the reasons he believed General Damers had frowned upon his suit for Violet's hand. There was something unsettling about a boy raised without family or ties.
Any caring father would be wary of him. Except Gwendolyn didn't shudder with horror. Instead, she interrogated him. "You lived in a brothel until what? You said you went to school."
Beck threw himself in the corner of the crouch and crushed his arms against his chest. He no longer cared that his leg brushed hers or that she smelled of clover and daisies.
No, right now she was maddening and he knew she had bested him. She'd not rest until she was satisfied. "You want the whole story?"
"I expect it."
"So be it." He ground down. "When I was around [00:20:00] five or six, maybe seven..."
"You don't know your age?"
"No."
"Didn't your mother tell you?"
"I don't know my mother." That was a terrible thing to confess, except Gwendolyn nodded as if it made sense.
"I don't know when I was born," he reiterated as if she didn't completely understand. "Whores don't keep careful records."
"I suppose some do."
Beck scoffed. "Mine didn't. I don't even know who she was. I never knew her."
"How did you survive? You were very young to be on your own."
"By doing what I was told and staying out of harm's way."
Something she would be wise to emulate. "I worked in the scullery, I emptied chamber pots. I cleaned out ashes. The jobs a child would do."
"But you have no inkling of how you came to be there."
He paused, considering. Realizing that he never truly thought deeply about how he had [00:21:00] ended up at Madam's.
"I was young, I can't recall."
"But you didn't know whom your father was?"
"Hmm. Not until Middlebury's men came to see Madam. She was the bawd who owned the house. The next thing I knew I was yanked out of the only home I'd known and sent to Fair Coat, a school up north."
"I've heard of it."
"Wonders never cease," he said. "An answer you accept without another question."
A hint of a smile came to her eyes as if she enjoyed his sarcasm and even this conversation between them. He realized he didn't mind it at all that much himself. He preferred keeping his affairs private, but he knew Gwendolyn would push until she knew all. Besides she hadn't flinched over learning his parentage and he had to admit he was impressed and, and a bit grateful.
Therefore, he continued. "I wasn't even to know I was Middlebury's until Madam made a comment about it. She gave up the secret and she shouldn't have. Middlebury's man [00:22:00] struck her so hard, she fell to the floor. Up until then, she was the most powerful person in my life," he explained, wanting Gwendolyn to understand how shocking this was.
"She had a bodyguard named Durable who could snap the arm of anyone who created trouble at the house. Everyone was afraid of Madam. She was afraid of Winstead."
"That is Middlebury's man?"
Beck nodded. "When he left me at Fair Coat, he said that if he ever heard Middlebury's name pass my lips, he would cut my tongue out.
I believed him."
"But you have said his name freely just now."
"Because he's dead. I have no fear of him."
"How did he die?" Beck wasn't about to confess he killed him. He kept silent, Gwendolyn waited, watching him as if she could steer him into answering. She couldn't. Finally, she gave a small huff of annoyance before asking, "you never met your father?"
This he could answer, although he secretly [00:23:00] enjoyed this small victory. "Never. I lived at the school, stayed at the school, and then went off into the military. I didn't have a desire to meet him either because of what this Winstead said. I'm not fond of people who want to cut out my tongue." She seemed to actually consider this and then admitted, "I wouldn't be either."
Let's leave it there.
Katherine Grant: What an electric scene. There's so much going on there.
Cathy Maxwell: Oh good. Thank you. Thank you.
Katherine Grant: Yeah, thank you for reading that. We're gonna take a quick break for our sponsors and then I've got a lot of questions for you.
Katherine Grant: All right. I am back with Cathy Maxwell, who just read from A Touch of Steele, and this was a very interesting scene with lots going on. The power dynamics of this scene were very much around intelligence.
Gwendolyn [00:24:00] wanted information. Steele didn't wanna give it to her. She overpowered him, he gave it to her. So I couldn't help but think about you having an intelligence background. Can you talk about how your day jobs before you became a full-time writer prepared you or influenced your writing?
Cathy Maxwell: I have always been adventurous and I can remember when I graduated from high school, I wanted to join the Navy. I always wanted to join the Navy, see the world. I thought I wanted to be in the foreign service at one point, and I couldn't see any reason for going to college because I didn't have a strong goal in mind.
So I had mentioned to my mother that I was thinking that I wanted to join the Navy, and she's, oh my gosh, Cathy, you are not that sort of girl. And I was so naive. I had no idea what she was talking about. So off I went to college and, you know, went, but at a [00:25:00] certain point, I think when I was about 22 years old,
I was doing the news at a local television station out in western Kansas. Great, great people, wonderful opportunity, but I found myself bored. Reading the news is like reading bedtime stories to people. And there's a lot to be said for making the news. So I made a list of the 25 things I wanted to do with my life and writing a book was on there.
I had no idea what I wanted to write but I, but so was joining the Navy.
I felt strongly to serve the country to go off on, have an adventure, let's go. And I did. I went off. And back then you couldn't, you couldn't just go into the Navy. There was a waiting period. I had to wait like nine months before I was allowed to come in.
And during that time, I met a lot of older women, women who are my age now, who would say I always wanted to join the service, but I didn't, and I regret it. [00:26:00] Hmm. I didn't want any regrets in my life. And I think when we write about in romance, which is, this is kind of a contrast where, where the purpose is meeting the, the love of your life and, and going off into the sunset together, anything, it's also a grand adventure.
Very few of us, even writing historical romance write about women who don't have an opinion, women who don't have desires or dreams or goals, or who aren't fighting to save the family manner or who aren't gonna take on the conquerors. There's a great deal of adventure in all of that.
So I think that's the thing I tap into the most was sitting down and remembering this idea that I don't want regret, I wanna seize an idea and [00:27:00] act upon it. Yeah. And that's exactly what heroic characters do. So I think that's what influences me the most.
Katherine Grant: It's very striking that you made this list of things that you wanted to accomplish. And it's also very striking that you've written over 40 books. And I'm curious, did you have a similar approach to when you figured out that you were writing romances, a lot of romances, that you were gonna have a career out of this?
Do you have something similar that you used to find inspiration and, and find the adventure of writing historical romances to, you know, stay inspired and find new ideas and keep it fresh?
Cathy Maxwell: Well, my goal was to have a long career and that meant that I was, I was gonna have to be stepping up to the plate with a new book on a regular basis.
And there's two ways that that can happen. One way is that I just keep writing the same book over and over again, and I would've found that boring. So I try [00:28:00] to push myself in new directions with different levels of success. I think in the long run, that's the best way to have a career because readers know that they aren't gonna get the same old, same old from me.
Mm-hmm. Not to say that there aren't writers who write pretty much the same book over and over again, and they're just fabulous. But for me as a writer, I have to try new ideas. I have to test them. I wrote a trilogy that's a paranormal historical romance set in the Regency.
It was supposed to come out every other month at the time. Wow. So it was gonna be every other month. And so each book had a cliffhanger until we got to the final book. And you know, the kind of cliffhanger that you see in fantasy and you see in science fiction or whatever else.
Well, at the last minute, the publisher changed their mind. They decided they were gonna come out every nine months. Oh, I remember the first one came out. And there were readers who just lashed out, who were just so [00:29:00] upset. I'm never gonna read from this writer ever again.
I'm not gonna... and now today that's a really popular trilogy for me. Mm-hmm. You know, that it's worked out really well. 'cause all three books are out now, so, you know, yeah. It can carry through. But I sit there and I think, but I had to do what I did because if I didn't push the envelope, I wouldn't know whatever, what new nook or crevice or whatever there is that a story can leak and find and, and start to develop and grow.
Katherine Grant: Well, speaking of pushing the envelope, I think it's a good time to play. Love it. Or leave it where we find out which romance conventions you love or could leave behind.
Cathy Maxwell: Oh, okay. Thank you.
[Musical Interlude]
Katherine Grant: All right. Do you love it or leave it? The protagonists meet in the first 10% of the story.
Cathy Maxwell: I'm agnostic. All right. You know, I've read stories where, where they didn't meet until the middle of the book and [00:30:00] I thought they were great. I'm just loving Ashley Poston and her heroes never meet until the middle . But then there's others that they meet on the first page and I am so on board, I can't stand it.
So it's tough. I dunno.
Katherine Grant: All right. Love it or leave it? Dual point of view narration.
Cathy Maxwell: Love it.
Katherine Grant: Love it or leave it? Third person past tense.
Cathy Maxwell: Leave it.
Katherine Grant: Love it or leave it? Third act breakup or dark moment.
Cathy Maxwell: That is a hard one. I don't like it when everything's happened, everything's been resolved, and we all feel like smoking a cigarette. You are like, okay, this is done.
This is it. Because I do read for the romance. That's what I read for. And granted there might be a mystery or something's missing or something like that. No. Isn't it nice that they could find it? But I'm really reading to see if these two people who I've decided deserve each [00:31:00] other are actually going to get together.
So I guess that would mean,
sounds like you love it. Love it. Yeah. I was gonna say love it. Love it, love it, love it.
Katherine Grant: Alright. Love it or leave it? Always end with an epilogue.
Cathy Maxwell: Oh, I love it. All right. As long as no one dies.
Katherine Grant: Yeah. Love it or leave it? Always share research in your author's note.
Cathy Maxwell: I love it.
Katherine Grant: Alright. Yeah.
Well, I think, you know, having published 40 plus books, you have certainly pushed the envelope as discussed with the, the cliffhangers.
And I know I read an interview somewhere online where you were encouraging writers to just write the book that is in your heart. Don't let the rules stop you. So I know readers will find lots of your heart in the books that they read.
Cathy Maxwell: Well, [00:32:00] that's a kind of you, and you know what the, the truth of the matter is, is that when we get into these rules they create doubt.
And I think doubt has killed more careers than any other form of rejection. Mm. And we reject ourselves. We just cut. It's not making sense, or it doesn't fit in here. Or we gave it to someone to read and they said, oh, they didn't meet in the first. 10% of the book and therefore this can't be a romance or I think that, I think that the idea of a Happily Ever After is a necessity.
I like things tied up in a big bow at the end. I think that's important, but I don't like hearing about writers who give up. And I think we live in an interesting time because we used to have lots and lots of gatekeepers. When I first started 30 years ago, there were many, many gatekeepers.
And so someone could have the best book in the world and nothing would [00:33:00] happen because it had a vampire in it. And they had the gatekeepers that decided vampires aren't gonna sell until they sold, and then we couldn't put enough vampires in. And, you know, that's market forces. That's all going there.
But I really like the freedom we have now where we are our own gatekeepers. Mm-hmm. And I think it's a really refreshing time for commercial fiction. Yeah. I think it really is, so. Yeah.
Katherine Grant: Yeah. Well, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing A Touch of Steele as well as answering my questions.
Do you have anywhere that you want readers to go to find you and your books?
Cathy Maxwell: Oh, you can always find me online on social media. I have a webpage, C-A-T-H-Y Cathy maxwell.com. And I also, I'm usually on Facebook. I'm on Instagram. If you yak at me, I will normally yak back. It will be me, yaking because[00:34:00]
I like to procrastinate and that's the things you know, and that's one of the easiest ways to do it is fine. Oh, you wanna talk about books? Okay, let's talk about it.
Katherine Grant: All right. Well thank you so much. Listeners. I will put a link to the website in the show notes.
Cathy Maxwell: Thank you.
Katherine Grant: Yeah, thank you so much for coming on.
Cathy Maxwell: It was wonderful.
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