FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Katherine Grant: Welcome to the Historical Romance Sampler Podcast. The place for you to find new historical romance books and authors to fan over. I'm award winning historical romance author Katherine Grant, and each week I'm inviting fellow authors to come on and share a little bit of their work and themselves.
[00:00:21] They'll read a sample of one of their books, and then I'm going to ask them a bunch of questions. By the end of the episode, you'll have a sense of what they write and who they are. Hopefully, you and I both will have something new to read. So what are we waiting for? Let's get into this week's episode.
[00:00:37] All right, welcome everyone! Today I am joined by USA Today best selling author Gina Conkle. Gina's fate was sealed when her mom read aloud the poem The Highwayman, the perfect historical romance hook. But Gina grew up in California where no dukes or vikings live. She always did prefer stone castles over sand castles and books over beaches.
[00:01:01] Years ago, she fell in love with her favorite hero, Brian, and they eloped to Vegas at midnight. Together, they raised two sons who like history almost as much as their mom. Nowadays, Gina pens sparkling Georgian romance with a dash of Scots or Viking romance with heat and adventure. When she's not writing You can find her wandering a museum or with her nose in a book.
[00:01:26] So why not try one of hers? Welcome, Gina!
[00:01:30] Gina Conkle: Thank you very much, Katherine. Nice to be here.
[00:01:32] Katherine Grant: I'm excited to have you here. Yeah! So, what are you reading for us
[00:01:36] today?
[00:01:38] Gina Conkle: Oh, I am going to read from my book, Forrest Scott's Heart Only. It's the third book in the Scottish Treasures novels. This is, if I may, this is the first one, and this is the second one.
[00:01:53] And the premise of the series is, it's seven years after Culloden, and a band of Scotswomen go to London to hunt the lost treasure of Arkaig. So, like, the scene set up on this one for a Scott's heart only is Thomas is a shipbuilder and shipmaster and he's had a mild flirtation with Mary in the past and they do business, they do business together because he sells her whale bones and bailing.
[00:02:24] And he is shocked to find her in a brothel in Maison Bedwell in the middle of the night. And so the scene set up is he's escorting her out when they have a most surprising conversation. So here we go. As they reached the entry hall, nearly a dozen noblemen poured into Maison Bedwell, rain spitting at their backsides.
[00:02:50] They paid the attendant and began shedding greatcoats and hats into the arms of waiting footmen. Miss Fletcher broke away from Thomas and folded her fan, the very polite and very icy version of her back in place. Thank you, Mr. West. Your assistance was invaluable. It was my pleasure. The Scotswoman was distracted, drifting toward newcomers.
[00:03:11] Had he been dismissed? Arms crossed he waited. She circled the crowd searching for someone. He'd keep her in sight, but he wouldn't follow. Pride, certainly, and he had fair knowledge of her. Miss Fletcher, Miss Fletcher might look like a confection in white silk, but her beauty came with a bite. London's wailing trade was small, and the corset maker had a reputation for being cool and headstrong.
[00:03:35] She had to be. The business of corsets and staves was largely the province of men, which gave him pause. Miss Fletcher might have come here with a man. He rested his shoulder on the wall. Competition was inevitable. He'd wait and see who it was. The men in the entry were gaping at her, their heads whipping left to right when she passed by.
[00:03:55] Fools, he muttered upset under his breath. They missed the better part of her. The calluses and scars on her fingers. Her blunt nails and red knuckles. Their quizzical glances were an attempt to size her up. He pitied them. Miss Fletcher wasn't of their ilk. Her gait too brisk, her gaze too direct and her nature too focused.
[00:04:16] Their way of life would bore her to tears. Which begged the question, why was she here? His jaw had nearly unhinged when he'd spied her across the gaming room. He'd left a promising game of hazard to see what she was about. The conversation which followed, illuminating. Miss Fletcher was an enigma, her skin pearlescent under chandeliers.
[00:04:37] Her lips lush and pillowy. The other pillowy parts on full display had stunned him. Such largesse, considering the corset maker was usually prim and proper. A footman stopped to speak to her, pointing at the front door. She bestowed a smile on him and the sod practically melted on the spot, yet Miss Fletcher was not a purposeful seductress.
[00:04:58] She seemed not to care about her effect on men, all but ignoring the newcomers. Her polite rebuffs sent that gaggle of men to the ballroom. Revelry dimmed when a footman shut the ballroom doors behind them. Finally, some peace and quiet. Miss Fletcher waited in the heart of the room, her head and neck craning at the ceiling.
[00:05:20] Rather deceptive, she muttered. Thomas looked up. Frescoes covered the high arched entry. What's deceptive? Her chin dropped. You're still here, she said, mildly surprised. Where else would I be? I did say I'd see you safely out. A gentle smile creased her lips. What an honorable man you are, Mr. West, but that's not necessary.
[00:05:43] She stayed put. He did the same. His shoulders stuck to the wall. So that's how she's going to play it. Despite their extraordinary night, Miss Fletcher wanted to put them both back on the neat shelf of merchant and shopkeeper, as if this interlude never happened. He wasn't having it. What's wrong with the frescoes, he asked.
[00:06:02] She waved vaguely at the vaulted ceiling, each section a vignette. You don't see it? Nude women lolling on the grass, nude women laughing on swings, and nude women writing on? She huffed and grumbled. Never mind, when the servant delivered her cloak. Please, Thomas said, do go on. The Scotswoman whirled black velvet over her shoulders.
[00:06:25] I really must go. My friend is waiting for me. Hm. Friend, is it? But you haven't finished. He pointed at the prescoes. We are in a brothel, Miss Fletcher. Unclothed women are part of the transaction. Leaning beads encircled knowing eyes while she tied a bow under her chin. Indeed, we are in a brothel. But those painted women are an overly cheerful lot.
[00:06:49] Why wouldn't they be? Their cheer is the deceit, she said. Then it's not their nakedness which bothers you. It's their demeanor. Miss Fletcher was migrating closer to him. Her bow finished, a small frown showed above it. He grinned, delighted at having ruffled her feathers. Have I struck an uncomfortable note, he asked.
[00:07:11] Not quite, he canted his head. Explain yourself. Miss Fletcher studied him as if she played a bigger conversational game than he, the unwitting opponent. It is not an appropriate topic of conversation. What about our conversation in the gaming room, he goaded. Was that appropriate? She rewarded him with an amiable smile.
[00:07:33] Fair logic, Mr. West. But I am trying to be delicate. I don't need delicate. Ah, that's right, she said, drawing near. You have a taste for forthrightness. Most men do. The Scotswoman pinned him with an artful gaze. Then you'll appreciate my indelicate summation that you, like most men, think the sun rises and sets on your John Thomas.
[00:07:57] He grunted, what a saucy piece. With black velvet draping luscious curves, she made an enchanting picture until her pretty mouth spilled more sacrilege. And like most men, you believe women bask in the glory of your virility. The truth is, most women do not. He tried to be casual, arms crossed and all. Never had a woman complain.
[00:08:18] Miss Fletcher hooked a finger through a buttonhole on his coat, and a carnal earthquake rocked him. Oh, I'm sure the stars shimmered and the moon shined brighter, she said, teasingly soft. A grin broke despite an effort to quash it. Never said I inspired poetry. Her answering smile told him he'd brought a pistol to a cannon fight.
[00:08:40] I tried to warn you. Her gentle tug on his coat ran a plumb line hot and fast south of his navel. Bloody hell, this woman would make a monk cry. He was mildly affronted, highly curious, and vexingly aroused. A strange effect. The Scotswoman dissembled him, piece by piece. Yet the more she talked, the more transfixed he was by her and her genteel Edinburgh accent.
[00:09:05] There was an educated back of the mouth treatment Miss Fletcher gave to her words. Definitely a voice to warm his cockles on a cold winter's night. This was a first. A woman's voice inciting lust. What was next? Worshipping her knees? You sound confident, he said a touch surly. Her shrug slight Miss Fletcher let go of his coat.
[00:09:26] I am, as the only female corset and stagemaker in London. Women confide in me, lots of women, and I've found their stories remarkably similar. He shifted off the wall, missing her hand on his coat. What do they say? Noise bursts from the ballroom. A doe eyed harlot and a barrel chested man, his cravat fluttering loose, drapes through the entry.
[00:09:48] A footman scurried from the shadows and shut the ballroom's gilt trimmed doors as though he could damn revelry's tide. Miss Fletcher watched the footman, raising her hood and hiding her glorious hair. Every day women come and go to my shop. None of them have any idea what others have told me. But mark me, sir, they're honest.
[00:10:09] About half the women tell me they feign enthusiasm in bed, while others confess to lying limp as yesterday's fish. The number who do find pleasure in the act is quite small, I'm afraid. He could feel a scowl growing. You're telling me most women in London find no pleasure in bedsport? Her answer was a long suffering exhale.
[00:10:32] You're a smart man, Mr. West. Do the math. Most of the wives who visit my shop say it's their marital duty. She eyed the frescoes, almost bored. You and I both know for harlots, it's a job. He glanced at the painted ceiling, irritated those frolicking women. Their smiles were over bright. What about your pleasure, he asked.
[00:10:53] The gruff question popped out. It bordered on too much. But this was an evening of excess. Miss Fletcher merely brushed back a blasted curl which kept falling on her cheek. I really must go, she said. My friend is waiting. He tensed like a predator. Your friend? She started walking backward, confident.
[00:11:12] There'd be no more womanly secrets and no utterance on who waited for her. Promise me you will forget this night, was her request. Our flirtation? He advanced on her, not a chance. Her silk petticoats shushed prettily. It cannot happen again, she said. Why not? The footman in pink and white livery whisked open the front door, doing his best to blend in the woodwork.
[00:11:36] The rain had stopped, a dense mist replacing it. Miss Fletcher swept into the night, and he joined her on the front step. Please don't follow me, she said. You don't want me to see you safely to your carriage? I'm a capable woman, Mr. West. I've spent years seeing myself in and out of carriages. Therein was the problem.
[00:11:56] The corset maker didn't need a man. Years of good breeding and gentlemanly fiber demanded that he see her safely away. He searched the damp square for clues as to where she was going. Candle lamps hung from trees in the center garden. Carriages clustered the road outside. Maison Bedwell, outside Maison Bedwell, their lamps chips of light.
[00:12:19] Cloaked in black, Miss Fletcher would disappear into that darkness. But his feet and hers weren't moving. She tipped her face to him. Let me go. I'm not stopping you, he said. Her silver spectral eyes beguiled him. He'd seen the color once in nature, north of the North Sea, where storm clouds sank into the water.
[00:12:42] Deep mysteries lived there. So did elusive creatures barely known to man. The same could be said of the dark haired siren from Scotland. Standing with her was a taste of the exquisite. An unseen tether binding them. Night blurred a serene watercolor. Neither wanted this to end. He knew that. Miss Fletcher did too.
[00:13:03] Clutching the bow under her chin, a sable curl floating free. The moment ripe for a kiss. Except they were on the doorstep of a brothel where men paid easy quid for a great deal more. What irony this was, him working hard for a kiss that would not happen. Please, go inside, she said, as though she needed him to walk away.
[00:13:24] Despite the cold, damp air, he was stubborn. Give me your right hand, she balked. My bewildered Miss Fletcher offered him her ungloved appendage. Water dripping down his cheeks, he folded his hand, his hands around her work worn hand. Wrapped with something more powerful than lust, he caressed her palm.
[00:13:46] Crystalline droplets anointed her hood, drawing the eye to her beautiful face. But Miss Fletcher's hands were her story, her fingers where he touched, the small white scars which he traced. And the tip of her middle finger stained green from a brass thimble, which he kissed tenderly, sweetly. Her lips parted on a fragile gasp, the sound rang inside him.
[00:14:11] Laborers at Howland Great Wet Dock would box a man's ears for attaching tender and sweet to anything he did. But it was the truth, and the innocent kiss worth it. She had amused, enlightened, irked, and insulted, and surprised him all in one hour. What would happen if she gave him the night? Possibly heaving breaths, hot kisses, and lively conversation with the too smart for her own good corset maker.
[00:14:38] He'd have her spouting poetry. Shite, he'd spout some, too. But tonight he would let her go. Good night, Miss Fletcher. His voice rumbled in the dark. She hid her hand in velvet folds. Good night, Mr. West. Despite the Herculean resistance inside him, he forced himself to walk back inside as requested. What he did next was a secret between him and those smiling frescoes.
[00:15:05] Katherine Grant: Yay. Oh my gosh. That was so beautiful. Oh, thanks.
[00:15:10] Gina Conkle: Did you capture the humor or the, the, like the kind of the twist of things that she
[00:15:16] Katherine Grant: yeah, I mean, yeah, I love the humor. I love how she was kind of educating him. Things. Most of all, I love the, it was kind of like a power dynamic where she had all the power over him.
[00:15:30] She had information. She had her generous a quad that he was, you know, spending so much time observing. And then at the end, there's that little change where he doesn't kiss her. Like she might've been expecting him to, and Leaves her with a lot more. I have a lot of questions that we're going to get to.
[00:15:50] First, we're going to take a break for our sponsors. Hey samplers, it's Katherine Grant. I am interrupting this episode to tell you how to get a free book, The Viscount Without Virtue. First, go to bit. ly slash hrsfan. Go through the checkout process. This is where you add the promo code hrsfan. As your last step, just download your free ebook to your e reader.
[00:16:20] All right, well, let's get back to this week's episode. And we're back with USA Today bestselling author, Gina Conkle. And I loved so much about what you just read. I'm really curious because The setup of the plot is kind of a high concept, they're chasing treasure sort of thing. And then the story itself, the sample that you read is so very specific.
[00:16:48] And this moment of like maybe 15 minutes of their night is beautifully delved into. So I'm curious when you're thinking about writing, what comes first for you? Is it, is it the vibe? Is it the characters? Is it the plot? And how do all of those interact as you're drafting?
[00:17:08] Gina Conkle: Hmm. I am definitely evolving as a writer.
[00:17:12] I used to just be a total pantser, just sit down, whatever came to mind. And It was very satisfying and freeing to do that, but then I'd get stuck at places like, where am I going? What is this about? So I've been like, as we, we talked earlier a little bit about when you before this.
[00:17:34] And so I've been working on learning more about plotting. So I call myself now a planter. So what I do is. And I didn't do it with this series. But I am doing it with what I'm writing now. So to. To address. Your question. I make a vision board now. Which I didn't do before. I had done a partial 1 for a Viking series that I had thoroughly researched.
[00:18:01] So I guess what I do is I start with the characters. And I write down whatever comes to mind and I do it often longhand in a notebook and then I make the vision board and writing the back, like, with the back cover copy you know, like, the short summary of the story that actually comes easy because for me, because if I know, okay, here's the conflict and here's the basic trope and okay, I can fill in all the rest.
[00:18:32] And that's kind of how I go. Like, I, I set myself up for when you give a proposal to an editor. So that's how I developed the series. I would that mindset a lot of just pants in writing, longhand writing, and then whatever the scene is that's in my head and and then the vision board and then the, the actual proposal where I start to like, Put really bones on it, I guess, if you will.
[00:19:03] Katherine Grant: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. I always think it's It's interesting when it comes to matching back cover copy with the story and sometimes I'm like, I'm going to write the back cover copy first and I do that and then I write the story and I'm like, that doesn't fit the back cover copy that I wrote.
[00:19:22] Gina Conkle: Yeah, then you adjust. Yeah.
[00:19:24] Katherine Grant: So, one other thing I really loved from that passage that you read was there was a lot of specific character detail and especially imagery that Thomas had in his head. That was informed. By his professions like he compared the North Sea, which I presume he went to as a boatmaker.
[00:19:45] So, at what point do you decide? Which comes first, deciding the profession and then researching and then writing? Or do you, have you done a lot of research and been like, oh, I want to write about it with Boatmaker? Like, how did, how's that process for you?
[00:20:00] Gina Conkle: It's kind of both. I read a lot of nonfiction and ideas, characters just spring up.
[00:20:08] From reading nonfiction than the other on the other hand, when I knew he was going to be a whaler. So, in this case with Thomas, I had to go and research the Howland Great Wet Dock had, like, it's provenance as a dock, where all the ships were built a little bit about the English waiting whaling trade because it was dying off at this time.
[00:20:32] It had been supplemented by. The government so much like in a competition between the Dutch who were winning basically that competition. And so that's that actually plays into the conflict with Thomas and what's happening with him and what he wants. So, yeah, so it's kind of both my husband jokes that, like you know.
[00:20:55] Oh, did Gina order some more books today? Are they coming to the house? And because I, I have a lot of books. So, yeah, I love the research part. I love visiting museums and castles and going to places like I visited the Ben Franklin house in London kind of thing. And I was like, I know I'm going to find a way to.
[00:21:17] You know, get that into a book some someday, because I like to write like squarely in the mid 1700s. So, and I found, I don't know about you, but. I found that if I really stick within like a 20, 10, 20, 30 window period of time, I can really drill down deep and then you learn more of the little, little things that add life to historical romance stories.
[00:21:45] So, maybe I'm really a historical fiction author who, oh, writes romance. I wondered that sometimes.
[00:21:57] Katherine Grant: I feel the same way. The more that I have stuck with Regency and Learned about, I mean, you end up learning about the whole Georgian era when you're researching Regency. But yes, your knowledge just gets deeper and deeper and more layered and there are nuances you can uncover and you understand why certain things that seem like they wouldn't have been a big deal were a big deal.
[00:22:20] It's just all like the dots start connecting. I love it. Yeah. And what was that detail of her finger being stained by the brass thimble? Was that something that, like, was a specific detail you came across in your research or you just, like, knew that they were using brass thimbles and so that came to you naturally?
[00:22:41] Gina Conkle: That just came to me. It was like I think when we, when we are falling in love you pick up on the details of the person you love that others don't see that. So. Yeah, I didn't plan to write that about her finger and the thimble. And it's being stained green. It just sort of happened. And that's the beauty of, like, writing.
[00:23:10] That's the part that really makes me, like, puts my butt in the chair to, because I love that. It's like a, it's a high almost, like, you know, like you drink a bunch of wine because you, I don't drink, I drink a bottle of wine.
[00:23:22] Katherine Grant: I know what you mean. Yeah.
[00:23:26] Gina Conkle: It's like the most amazing feeling, being in that flow.
[00:23:30] The characters are basically taking over the story. You know, you've got the bones of the, the facts and about the time, but then now it's the characters are taking over and that's the best, that's the best day for a writer.
[00:23:43] Katherine Grant: Yeah. Well, and I think that speaks to when you've done the research, like clearly you already knew some things such as that she was a corset maker and that what her life would be like.
[00:23:53] So what would that have been? Pack it on her hands and what kind of materials would she be using? And so you had all of that that you weren't necessarily actively thinking about, but that informed your writing so that you could find that really valid and true little moment that is so beautiful.
[00:24:11] Gina Conkle: Yeah.
[00:24:11] Yeah. Well, thank you. I think the other thing too we often like, oh, first kiss. Oh, it's gotta be, you know, mouth to mouth. And really I find it more interesting when a To different places. So like that, it was specifically to the middle finger stained her finger stained with the, you know, the green like, I know who you are.
[00:24:36] I know that you work for a living and he works for a living. So, yeah, I love comments. I love comments. Yes. And, and that, yeah, and that it was to her finger and like, that she felt that, like, that it resonated deep in her soul. So, yeah.
[00:24:57] Katherine Grant: Well, another thing I noticed is You were able to work in some is particularly in their dialogue terms that sounded to me like they were straight from the Georgian era.
[00:25:08] Like I didn't write it down, but whatever she called his, you know, what is man part his member. Yeah, so. I always struggle with this. I'm curious, how do you approach the idea of researching and knowing what language they would have used and then writing for a modern reader to easily read it?
[00:25:36] Gina Conkle: Hmm. Well, a lot of historical romance readers They kind of, they, they love the escapism of historical romance space.
[00:25:46] So, you know, they're, they've heard the terms, the slang terms, but for the body parts it's kind of interesting. I just did a, a, like, on my Facebook page, I'll do like these weekly little surveys and I asked, like, what genre would you not read? And a lot of them were so historical romance readers, diehard readers were, they wouldn't read horror and.
[00:26:18] That so I responded to a lot of them and so they started responding to me and the basic gist is we want to escape to another world that is pleasant and fun. And so I think because of that, because a lot of these people have been reading romance for years, historical romance, specifically they're familiar already with Regency can't and earlier Georgian can't, if you will.
[00:26:42] Katherine Grant: What about when you get into terminology?From the corset making or the whaling. Do you put in a lot of that? I don't know what it would be, but I imagine there are very specific terms that they used to make it feel more real. Or do you kind of summarize so that the reader is like, okay, I get it. They're talking about sewing a corset.
[00:27:07] Gina Conkle: I read somewhere once.
[00:27:09] He was a famous author, not someone I read, but it was a pretty big name. And he said, when adding details. Just give three sharp, salient details, like don't, you know, overkill. And so when I, like, there is a scene where she's in the back of her shop and it's the process of how she does it and I want the setting to reveal the chaos and there's, she's, she also makes her own glue.
[00:27:41] So I kind of like, gave just a few. Sharp details about the glue. I think it was maybe 2 sentences or 2 lines, not even not more than 1 or 2 sentences total and so that you got the smell you got how she was doing it. And you got a sense of, like, her life is starting to fall apart, but the glue, she's trying to glue things back together, almost like a, an imagery.
[00:28:09] So that's, so if, if I, I guess to answer your question, that's how I try to do it. I don't, you're, when you're writing entertainment, you're not there to educate. You are there to entertain can you educate? Sure. But what you do is you dri drop just enough of the, the details, but then the reader, oh, I wanna go look up corset making in 1753.
[00:28:38] Oh, I wanna, how did they make glue? And all that stuff. So yeah. So that's kind of how I approach it. Just a few sharp, I love that details that, that reach the senses and then move on. Yeah.
[00:28:53] Katherine Grant: That's great advice.
[00:28:54] So
[00:29:00] now I'd like to move into our
[00:29:07] Gina Conkle, which do you trust more? Your heart, your gut, or your brain?
[00:29:12] Gina Conkle: Gut. Intuition.
[00:29:15] Katherine Grant: Do you believe in love at first sight?
[00:29:19] Gina Conkle: I think it can happen, yes.
[00:29:23] Katherine Grant: And is there a difference between lust and love?
[00:29:27] Gina Conkle: Oh, definitely. Definitely.
[00:29:32] Katherine Grant: So is love at first sight different from lust at first sight?
[00:29:37] Gina Conkle: I think it can be, yeah. I think it depends on the maturity level of a person. Are you a romantic? I think that there are also things outside of the physical realm that draw us to another person.
[00:29:54] Katherine Grant: So do you believe in soulmates? Yes. And do you believe in true love and is it different than soulmates?
[00:30:04] Gina Conkle: I think soulmates naturally gravitate toward true love. So it's kind of like I don't know, yin yang kind of thing that it's, it, it, you can't have one without the other. I Do, I will say this, like with the whole soulmates thing, I also firmly believe that you can marry, fall in love and be with other people who aren't your soulmate and go through life really happy and content.
[00:30:32] But I do believe in soulmates and I, I think when that hits you, it's like a, a ton of bricks when you, when that realization hits you. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:45] Katherine Grant: What makes an apology meaningful?
[00:30:53] Gina Conkle: Well, speaking specifically of men when they own up to what they did and they don't try to, they don't insert the word if. If I bothered you by doing, you know, blah, blah, blah. They've got to own it. They've got to say, Gina, I am sorry because I did, you know, whatever. Or Gina, I was an ass. I apologize.
[00:31:21] Just own what you did wrong. And the same for a woman. But for some reason, it seems a lot harder for men.
[00:31:29] Katherine Grant: So, all right. And the final question, why is romantic love important?
[00:31:38] Gina Conkle: I think love makes the world go round. I've said that in another interview. And yes, it's, it's well, to use the analogy that I did with Mary, it's, it's what holds us together. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. Thanks
[00:31:58] Katherine Grant: Gina. I declare you a romantic. Yeah. Okay, I'm not a surprise.
[00:32:06] Gina Conkle: What are you? Do I get to ask questions of you?
[00:32:11] Katherine Grant: I'm going to take this test. I'm going to do an episode that's me being interviewed. My husband's going to interview me and he's going to administer this test to me. So we'll find out then. But I think I'm going to be a
[00:32:24] Gina Conkle: romantic. Okay, I look forward to seeing that one.
[00:32:29] Katherine Grant: Gina, thank you so much for your time today.
[00:32:31] I always love being able to catch up with you, and I loved hearing your book and having this conversation. So I really appreciate it.
[00:32:38] Gina Conkle: And it was a pleasure talking with you too. I really enjoy you, Katherine. Thank you.
[00:32:42] Katherine Grant: Aw, thank you. That's it for this week. Check out the show notes where I put links for my guests, myself, and the podcast.
[00:32:51] Until next week, happy reading.