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Jennie L Spohr Samples Heirs and Spares (Betwixt The Sheets)
Katherine Grant: Welcome to the historical romance sampler podcast. I'm your host, Katherine Grant, and each week I introduce you to another amazing historical romance author. My guest reads a little sample of their work, and then we move into a free ranging interview. If you like these episodes, don't forget to subscribe to the historical romance sampler, wherever you listen to podcasts and follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube.
Now let's get into this week's episode.
I'm so excited to be joined today by Jennie L Spohr. Jennie is the author of the bestselling historical Renaissance Romance Series, the Realm, including heirs and spares, God and King, crown and Thorns, and Sword and Shield. She made the innovative decision to write two spice level additions of her series so readers can pick their preference without losing any of the swoon and intrigue.
When she's not writing, Jennie can usually be found shaking up a mean cocktail, swapping ghost stories or daydreaming about her favorite season, autumn. A lifelong lover of the arts, she grew up performing musical theater and now calls Dublin home after relocating from her native Seattle. Jennie, I'm so excited to have you here.
Jennie L. Spohr: Thanks so much, Katherine. I'm excited to be here. This is great.
Katherine Grant: Yeah, I am really intrigued by your the premise of how you're writing this series, so I can't wait to get into it. Yeah. But first you're gonna read us a sample. So you're reading from the first book Airs and Spares, and I believe you're reading to us from the spicy version.
Jennie L. Spohr: I'm reading from the spicy version.
Katherine Grant: All right, awesome. What do we need to know about the book and the scene?
Jennie L. Spohr: Okay, so this is from towards the beginning of the book where the two protagonists meet. The kind of context is there's a country and this king has kind of been thrust into power that he didn't really want.
He's a spare, kind of heirs in spares. He was one of those spares and his brother dies suddenly and he's thrust in this and everybody's like, you need to get married now. So he is off hunting for a queen. And then Anna the woman is like, hates the royals.
Like they're just. Basically jerks, your classic sort of pillaging the countryside. And she lives in a far flung dutchy, far away from royal court. So she just doesn't like any of it. But she also doesn't know that he is out looking for a queen and she just thinks he's just visiting because he just took over and that he wants to take the land back for the crown or something like, so she didn't.
Anyway, so that's, that's where we're starting. This is the arrival of the king for this dinner at her castle. And we're in the 1500s.
Jennie L. Spohr: It was getting on 11 the following evening, and the entire house of Carver from the lowest stable hand to the Duke himself stood at attention in Castle Beaubourg's courtyard. The rain was mist, a fine drizzle that showed no sign of abating. Anna had been up and down and up and down what seemed like 20 times that day.
No one dared touched the feast now gone cold and no one dared take a bit of leisure, lest his high and mighty arrive without warning. They had been kept apprised of the king's halting progress by succession of messengers, all claiming his majesty would arrive soon, the last one having left a half hour ago. He'd been due earlier that afternoon.
Blast these royals! Anna shivered in her damp gown. Selfish, slow, full of their own airs. The butcher's wife due with her babe any moment, Mary and I stuck here.
She heard the thick clump of hooves fast approaching. No doubt another fleet of messengers. She'd go to bed after this final insult, king or no.
Just as she turned to beg permission from her father, horses tore into the yard, mud flying, whining and wet, their riders bedraggled in their court dress. A tall cloaked man at the center dismounted in haste, barely waiting for his black beast to halt, the others scrambling after him. "Your grace," the man said striding to her father, not bothering to pull back his hood.
His boots were covered with mud. How disrespectful of her father's rank and weight. They were all alike no matter what Bryan said. "Please accept our most humble apologies for our tardiness," the man said. "It seems the weather up north frowns upon our journey, and as you can tell from our state, we've been stuck a long while."
"Your Majesty," her father said, bowing, then taking the king's proffered hand and kissing his ring. "Tis a trifle to wait upon such an honor. Please let us retire to dryness and warmth."
Anna gasped, unsure whether to be appalled or astounded at this behavior. The two men entered the castle, followed by another four of the King's Party. Anna heard the king's deep voice booming out.
"Our carriage shall be along at some point, hopefully by the time of our needed departure."
"Certainly sire. My men shall attend to every need," her father replied. "They'll soon be about seeing to your steed a creature of rare beauty, I must add." Their voices faded and Mary caught hold of Anna's arm, pulling her into the foyer.
"Ye look a fright." She busied about Anna's hair, which had frizzled in the damp.
"What does it matter? I shall retire and make my official appearance in the morning." She didn't care how the king would look upon such a breach. It served him right, keeping them waiting like this. Weather? What a paltry excuse.
"You'll do
no such thing, dearie," Mary said, moving to re fluff Anna's sleeves. "Tis the king who's here, not some horse trader."
"And the king needs to learn his manners."
"By flouting your own? Nay, anna, you were raised better if I say so myself." Mary gave a final shake to Anna's skirts. "Maybe with the light so dim, he will not see the dirt on the hem." Anna stood glowering as more laughter echoed in the hall. "Out with you." Mary gave her a little shove on the backside.
Anna stumbled a few steps into the archway leading to the sunken hall where the men had all sat down to eat, the king at the far end- in her father's usual place- her father to the king's right. The hall was darker than normal, as if the gloom from outside had drifted in with the king's party and hung over the table.
She could barely make out the men's faces close to her shadowed as they all were by the pall that even a surplus of candles could not pierce. She stopped on the top stair, unsure whether to enter there or go around through the hallway to her father, but the laughter crested and she noticed the king joining in.
He glanced in her direction, stroking his cheek. His smile faded. Even at such a distance, she could feel his eyes bore through her. Her heart sped like a sparrow under a cat's paw.
Benches and chairs scraped the stone floor as the man rose to honor her entrance. All but the king. He remained seated, watching.
She furrowed her brow at him and saw the flicker of a smirk break. So she was entertaining, was she? "Your Highness," Her father said, hurrying to her side. "May I present my daughter, the Lady Annelore Matilda of Beaubourg."
Anna curtsied low, glad to avoid the king's sharp eyes.
"Lady Annelore," the king said. "We are pleased and hope you accept our regrets for the lateness of the hour. Please join us at Table."
At her table. "Thank you, majesty," she said. She rose and moved to the lone seat at the far end between two of the Royal party, a thin blonde man and an older one, heavy and balding. She sat without ceremony, took a long swig of wine and set her goblet down with too much force, hushing the conversation enough to attract Bryan's attention. He gave her a sheepish look from across the table.
She picked up a fork and stabbed at a piece of cold venison. Meat secure, mouth open and morsel halfway to its mark, she looked up to find the king still staring at her. She put her bite down slowly, her eyes following it to the plate. Dammit. Stop looking at me with those blasted eyes.
"By all means, dear lady, eat,"
he said. The men were silent, everyone now watching her.
"Begging your pardon, Majesty," she said, eyes glued to her plate. "As we long awaited your party, I had not a moment to eat since noontime." She knew it was rude, but she couldn't help it. At least it should stop his stares.
"Of course," the king said. She felt his eyes leave her and then her breath return.
"Your grace.
Tell me more of your stables." This was the cue for the rest of the men to resume eating and talking. How skittish they all seemed, all save the two flanking her. The one on her left, the big one reached out and patted her forearm. "Pay no heed, my lady," he said. She glanced up to find hazel eyes dancing in the dim candlelight.
"I especially enjoyed the plum sauce with the venison fine. Finer plum sauce is not even found in Havenside, I dare say." his smile was so sincere she couldn't help but smile back. "The Duke of Halforn at your service, my lady." He made a little twirling salute with his hand. "And the gentleman to your right is his grace,
the Duke of Cecile."
Cecile turned to her and nodded with a perfunctory smile. "My lady, it is indeed a pleasure. And his grace is correct. The plum sauce surpasses that of even Rome."
"Your grace has been to Rome?" her pale cheeks flushed. She had not been able to mask her eagerness.
"Yes, my lady. But I didn't mean to boast, only compliment the sauce."
"Uh, but of course, I, I merely wish to.
It is just that, uh, please, dear Grace, speak to me more of your travels."
The Duke acquiesced with almost enough details to satisfy her, the jolly Halforn interjecting his wit until the talk of travels finally subsided. "So it is true your Ladyship has a learned mind," Halforn said, after a mouthful of sweet breads. "If only my daughters would take a lesson from you, my dear."
"How have you heard such your grace?" How could anyone outside of Beaubourg have heard anything about her, let in the state of her mind? Ah, but of course: Bryan had just returned from court.
Halforn laughed. "Why, it's our business to know of all the ladies of the land."
"What his grace means to say," Cecile started, but the voice of the king rose above them.
"We're afraid
there's no remedy, your grace, as we're already so delayed. We really must away tomorrow morning. Please don't take it as any reflection upon your hospitality."
"Of course not, sire," her father said. "I only wish to have given you the time you needed, as the matter is of such import."
"Worry not," said the king. "Things shall present themselves much more clearly after a night's rest.
Uh, if her leadership would be so inclined as to break fast with us, we do not believe our early departure will hamper the matter."
"If that be the case, highness," Anna said, "I shall be to bed now, if you please." The king raised his thick brows at her.
And her father sat stunned. "Please excuse my daughter, Highness.
She is used to less formality as in usual circumstances only she and I are at table."
"Think nothing of it, your grace," the king said "A lady who speaks her mind is one to be admired. Is she not?" Several at the table called out "here, here!" And raised their glasses in toast. To her or the king, she could not tell.
She pushed herself away from the table. "Then I shall-"
"You have our leave," the king said fixing her in mid-rise with that unnerving stare of his. How dare he make her feel so small in her own home? But of course, that's what kings did best.
"Majesty," she said, dipping into the faintest of curtsies and meeting his gaze with the force of her own.
"The distinct honor of your presence has been mine. Please continue to enjoy our hospitality as seems fitting to you." With that, she turned from all those men with our disconcerted faces and left them to grovel before their tyrant of a king.
Katherine Grant: Woo. What a fun scene with a very fun heroine.
Jennie L. Spohr: Thank you.
Katherine Grant: Yeah.
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Katherine Grant: I'm back with Jennie Spohr, who just read from Heirs and Spares: Betwixt the Sheets edition. And so I would love to get right into this series concept where you're writing two versions of each story. One is spicy, one is not. I guess let's start with what compelled you to do such a thing?
Jennie L. Spohr: Well first, I actually wrote them quite a bit apart from each other.
And when I was first writing, it was still incredibly taboo to be writing anything spicy. I mean, there was certainly a market for it, but it was kind of hush hush. And as the market changed I just felt ugh. I wish I would've wrote it the way I wanted to read it. Mm-hmm. And I was like a little closet Spice girl, uh, myself.
So then I thought, well, why not? Why not just write that version and just have both of them? Because I have plenty of friends who are spice like even more spicy than what I wrote. And others who are like, no, thank you. My imagination's enough. And so I was like, I've never heard of anybody doing this.
I don't know why they don't, but why don't we try this? Like, why don't we give it a whirl and see if it sticks, and see if people enjoy it? So that's why I did, and it was so fun to go back to the characters after a couple years and think of them more through that physical expression, you know?
Mm-hmm. Just as each of the characters has their expression for everything else in their lives, like seeing their physicality and how is their relationship going to be, uh, mirrored in their physicality and, and how is that gonna change over the, the se the entire series? And that was really fun to revisit too.
Katherine Grant: So, yeah, so to clarify is the, the nons spicy version, which I think is, has a clever name.
Jennie L. Spohr: Yes. This is Heirs and Spares, closed bed curtains edition.
Katherine Grant: Closed bed curtains. So was that like you had published that. That was out on the market. Okay. And then a couple years later you came in and you added, was it as simple as, oh, i'm gonna just go in and add 500 words where I'm opening up the bed curtain and finding out, or are there other changes that happened? How did that work?
Jennie L. Spohr: Yeah, there's a little bit of both. There's an entire chapter in both books titled Consummation and so like, so that, I mean, it's obvious like when the sort of doors close on that like easy to just, yeah, again, add the 500 words.
So there was a little bit of that. But I also did, I added a couple scenes entirely that don't change the plot or anything, but just are, you know, add a little more fun, spice. There's also brush strokes sort of throughout the book of just a little bit more of an intense reaction maybe to something or a sentence in the middle of a scene where they're at, there's some big feast at court and they lock eyes, and then there's a
a little sort of memory or something. Right. So, so it's more than just like, you know, find scene that says kiss h, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
Katherine Grant: Yeah. So building the romantic tension a little bit.
Jennie L. Spohr: Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Katherine Grant: That makes total sense to me. I've sometimes entertained the idea of if I were to remove the open door scenes from my books, what would
that do? And I do always come back to like, there's something about the relationship that is expressed physically. Yeah. Just imagine if you were in a romantic relationship and then you weren't like having intimacy, even if like any type of intimacy. Yeah. Right, right. So that's really interesting.
Jennie L. Spohr: Yeah, and that's an interesting thing too of the, you know, you want the spicy scenes in there 'cause they're fun, but it's also these need to drive the plot as well. Like this, there's something about this needing to happen here right now, and it doesn't happen in five pages. You know, or I just can't figure out how to get out of the scene. So they're gonna have sex.
There's something there where it's like, there is something undergirding this. Yeah.
Katherine Grant: Have you heard from readers? Are there readers who read both? Are there readers who are so glad that there's now spice? Are there readers who are still choosing the not spice? How's that going?
Jennie L. Spohr: Both. So I did an early giveaway, on, you know, when, when the Betwixt the Sheets was released and I gave people the choice if they wanted, either, and I'd say, 75% of people chose the spice, and 25% chose the closed door. I do have people who read the original versions who were like.
Oh my gosh, I'm totally, and reading all the new versions too and loving that. And then other people that just are hearing about it through the new publicity for the Betwixt the Sheets and are being like, actually, I wanna do the closed door completely. And that's great. Again that's why I wrote it.
I wanted well, you know, as a writer it's like you love your character so much. It's like, oh, I, yes. I love the story. I love the characters. And to be able to have them have the widest audience. It's great.
Katherine Grant: Yeah, absolutely. the setup of the series, the feel of the court waiting on the king and then this feast, and she's surrounded by all these men.
There's something about it that also feels, in addition to feeling historical romance, it feels like it's tapping into the like the, almost like the Game of Thrones world, or maybe the vibes of romantasy. So what inspired you to write this and were there specific books or authors that you consider your influences on this series that you were like, were like, that's the type of book I wanna write?
Jennie L. Spohr: So I, have a master's in theology actually. And so I've always loved that sort of Tudor era, like 1500s and 1600s hundreds. I concentrated on Elizabeth the first in graduate school quite a bit studying the reformation and sort of how that changed politics.
And just as a reader, I loved, you know, your Philipa Gregory, your Hillary Mantel, your Alison Weir. I love Alison Weir. I read a lot of those books, but I felt like there isn't, for me, my little romance heart, I was like, there's not enough romance in these books. Like I want something that has the plot and the intrigue and the sort of like games of throne-y impulse in it, but I want that romance in there too.
So that kind of drove me to it. What's interesting is romantasy was not a thing when I started writing this series, but the inspiration for Anna is actually an amalgamation of the six wives of Henry VIII. So the influence was actual history and historical characters, and so I took different things from the different queens. And put them in this character. So like, she's got the stubbornness and intelligence of an Anne Boleyn. She's got the naivete of a Katherine Howard.
Like, she's kind of young. And she's got the the fierce devotion of, Katherine of Aragon. Right. And the faith, she's a faith, deep faith as well. And she's very informed by it. And yet she's progressive. Like she wouldn't use that term, but she's a progressive Catholic, if you will.
And so there's a lot of things. She gets haunted. I made up a fake country to have this story and, and the fake country is Catholic. But she keeps being called a heretic and like, oh, you're a secret Protestant. And she's like, no, I'm not, you know, it sort of horrifies her or whatever.
But like, she kind of has more progressive ideas theologically. So that's another sort of Anne Boleyn thing. And then that I gave her that sort of stalwart ness of Katherine Parr. So anyhow, so that's, that's where she, she comes from. The six wives of Henry VIII Is, is where that character came from.
Katherine Grant: That's so interesting. And I'm curious, you know, you said your master's in is in theology and I read somewhere that you have in your previous life been an ordained minister and I had a someone who's a rabbi on, and you know, she was like, people kind of think, oh, you're a rabbi. You shouldn't be writing about sex and you shouldn't be writing romance.
And I imagine as an ordained minister there's kind of a similar thing. So my question is. Why is it so shocking for an ordained minister to be interested in romance and sex?
Jennie L. Spohr: Right. Well, because it's the patriarchy, girl. A lot of the history of the church is historically trying to silence people who are not in power, and the people who are generally in power have been men. So, silencing women, silencing queer folk most recently. All that sort of stuff. So. I came to religion late. I came to certainly Christianity later in life.
I was not raised with it, so I didn't have all these hangups coming in to the church. And so when I came in I was like, I chose to believe this because I discovered a God that was a God of love. Like the whole point was this is an entity that is bigger and stronger and larger than all of the hate and vitriol and ridiculousness that we shout into the world, and God responds to that with complete, unadulterated.
Love. Mm-hmm. So to come then into organizations that said they believed that, but then actually didn't live that out in the lived experience of the church or for a lot of people in the church, it just became really distasteful for me. And so I wound up leaving and there's a whole other.
Katherine Grant: Rabbit trail. I'm sure there's a lot more there. Yes.
Jennie L. Spohr: Was one of the reasons. There's a couple more that I've sort of had some experiences that have changed my actual belief in things. But anyhow. Yeah. But, but going back to that, that sort of, again, that really puritanical idea, that pleasure is somehow wrong and sinful and yet.
If you take this stance that you are somebody who is religious, then you generally believe that God created you and created your body and pleasure, sexual pleasure as well. It's like the just the touch, pleasure. All of these are created in your body. Like why? It would be like saying, okay, well you're supposed to drink water to survive, but you know what,
peeing is evil. Like what? It just doesn't make any sense. And it didn't make sense to me. It still doesn't make sense to me why, you know, other than again, these patriarchal forces, blah, blah, right? I could get into that that stuff pretty quickly. But for me, sex and love should be something that's, that's pleasurable.
And again, when we're talking about consent and all of those things are beautiful and in its context, it should be something fun and pleasurable and. Beautiful. And to be celebrated.
Yeah.
In my opinion. And you know, maybe that's part of why the church kicked me out and I kicked myself out of it.
So, but yeah, I didn't buy into the prudishness of the faith.
Katherine Grant: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well here here and good for you for sticking with yourself. One more question before we get into Love It or leave it. Heirs and Spares is the first book and it's a trilogy, and Anna and William are the protagonists throughout the whole trilogy, which is unusual in historical romance.
How did you approach crafting their love story across the three books? Can readers expect each book to deliver like a happily ever After for the book, or is it more like you have to read the whole trilogy to get the happily ever after?
Jennie L. Spohr: It is again like Game of Thrones. It is very plot driven and plot heavy.
So it's not a stereotypical romance of we're coming here for the romance. 'cause that's what this entire series is about. It's, it is more the plot. However their marriage parallels what's going on in the world. So there's a civil war at some point, which. Go figure. There's some stuff going on in there.
She struggles with fertility. There are things throughout the books that test their marriage and that's something else that I didn't really see happening in romance, much is at all, is seeing a marriage, right? So you're, you're gonna see the life of a marriage in the books with all its warts and yuck, but there's still, there's still spice throughout the whole thing.
But you're gonna see them both grow as people and their marriage grow as their kingdom kind of goes, you know, in and out.
Katherine Grant: I love the idea of following a couple through their marriage because there is a preference in like a romance as a genre tends to really focus on the beginning of the relationship, which is a beautiful and fun part.
But then hopefully there are like 60 more years Yes. Of that. So let, let's explore that more. All right, well, I think it's a good time to move to love it or leave it and find out your romance rules, perspectives.
[Musical Interlude]
Katherine Grant: All right. Do you love it or leave it? Protagonists meet in the first 10% of the story.
Jennie L. Spohr: To me, it depends on the book, right? If it's, if it's some big epic, I can wait 20, 30% of the book until they meet. But I wanna meet both of them in the first 10%. Like, if I don't meet them both in the first 10, then like, it's like, come on, I wanna know these people. But yeah, for me, I, I, I don't hold fast to that.
Katherine Grant: Yeah. All right. Do you love it or leave it? Dual point of view narration.
Jennie L. Spohr: Obvious. Obviously. I love it because I wrote in the dual perspective, which was so fun and frankly, so fun to write Spice that way too, was really fun.
Katherine Grant: Yes. Do you love it or leave it? Third person, past tense narration.
Jennie L. Spohr: That's my go-to writing style. So yeah. I love it.
Katherine Grant: All right. Do you love it or leave it? The third act, dark moment.
Jennie L. Spohr: So this kind of goes back to the question about the marriage thing of, of there's this expectation that everything goes to hell with the couple in that, in that third act.
But in, certainly in, in my series. Some things do go to hell in their marriage, and you have that sort of third act, but a lot, there are also a lot of things where they have to come together to sort it. So the big conflict isn't necessarily them. It's like how are these two characters going to approach this big huge thing in their way and how are they gonna do it together?
So, yeah, I would love a little bit more more of that. I was just reading a book the other night where I was like, oh gosh, they're just really happy right now. And of course there's going to throw a bomb in the middle of this. And I'm like, I want him happy again. Like get through that.
Katherine Grant: You don't want the dread of knowing something's coming.
Jennie L. Spohr: Exactly.
Katherine Grant: Yeah. All right. Do you love it or leave it? Always end with an epilogue.
Jennie L. Spohr: I guess love it. I always want a little bit more at the end, like even podcasts I listen to sometimes I'm like, oh, the podcast is over, but some podcasts have just a little bit on the end and I'm like, it just makes me so happy.
Little bit. Bye. Or whatever. Yeah.
Katherine Grant: All right. Do you love it or leave it? Always include your research in the author's note.
Jennie L. Spohr: Mm, I think you can do too much of that. I think a lot of that you should be, if you think it's important enough to be in that note, you should be showing it in the text. But sometimes you really need to add, so like in Heirs and Spares the third, but Crown and Thorns, Walter Raleigh, who's an actual historical figure, shows up in my fake country.
So seeing kind of a note about that in the book of like, you know, he went sort of missing from history for a good three years and I have him show up in Troignon and in those sort of missing three years. That's fun. I kinda add, 'cause I do, you know, it's like, it's a fake country, but everything else is real.
So like they're having letters back and forth with Elizabeth . So sometimes you might need a little more to kind of explain things or give context and set it up so people aren't pulled out of the story. Right. Yeah. But overboard sometimes.
Katherine Grant: Are you gonna answer for Shakespeare's dark years too?
Jennie L. Spohr: I should. Shakespeare, yeah.
Katherine Grant: Alright. And are there any other rules I didn't ask about that you like to break?
Jennie L. Spohr: Not really. I mean, I think we got into the, the marriage one and I guess the rule of, I broke a big rule of, I wrote two spice levels. That's a pretty big, pretty big rule.
I broke there and it's, it's been fun.
Katherine Grant: So do you think going forward for your new works, you will also write two spice levels?
Jennie L. Spohr: I would like to, but I don't know if I will. It all comes down to like marketability and things like that. So ultimately because I self pub the first one, like I indie pubbed, the, the closed bed curtains, it was no skin off the publisher's nose to do the next one.
So, I think it's fun and I think I again, love being able to have a, a wider audience.
Katherine Grant: Yeah. Yeah. That's very cool. Well, I really appreciate you coming on. Where can our listeners find you and your books?
Jennie L. Spohr: Great. Yeah, you can find me at my website, which is Jennie lpo.com.
It's J-E-N-N-I-E-L and then SPOH r.com. And that can links to all the books in there available anywhere. You can order 'em anywhere, you know, your local indie bookstore things like that. And then I am at jlspohrwriter on Instagram. I think it's Facebook too.
Katherine Grant: Thank you so much for coming on. This has been such an interesting conversation.
Jennie L. Spohr: It really has. Katherine, thanks so much. It's, it is just been a pleasure and, and I really feel like your questions have gone a lot deeper than some other, other folks out there, so I loved it. Thank you.
Katherine Grant: Thank you.
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